Well, I appreciate your concern, however I have a very great Saviour who intercedes for me perfectly, and His sufficiency is what gives me great hope in approaching His throne.

Justification is a one time legal declaration at the point of faith which is given by the Father. The result of this declaration can never be annulled as even Christ said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

Also-
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
John 17:2 [b]As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.[/b]
John 17:3 [b]And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.[/b]

Notice here, who gives eternal life, and what it is? Also notice that Christ speaks clearly of those having faith not falling away. God gives the birth, and does not commit abortions.

Our sanctification is not what we are justified by, and you will never find a verse that says we are justified by sanctification.

Because we have differing views on the new birth, we will come to differing ideas on the assurance of the believer. Unfortunately, only one of us is right, and I will stand on Scripture not traditions not found in the whole of Scripture.

You are offended by grace, which is what Paul addresses in Romans 6. I see this grace as being the only motivator and enabler for sanctification.

And I apologize for not realizing that you are not a male, please forgive me :-)

_________________
patrick heaviside

...nevermind.

Krispy

i tape every Sunday morning a program that comes on TV ...

[b]ROME REPORTS ...[/b]
http://151.1.143.193/index.php

It reports on much of everything the Vatican, and Benedict does ... It's often amazing in that some of the things Rome distates to governments, and her believing masses, make me clearly envision her riding atop The Revelation's "scarlet coloured beast" & "many waters" ...

i remember one program where Benedict addressed the masses telling them to follow Christ in thrift and frugalness, while all dressed up in his finery and speaking from his lavish summer home in Northern Spain (i believe) ... He thinks that because he says these things belong to The Church, whilst enjoying such luxuries he can still claim to be poor ... Also i saw a program where The Vatican sent a Cardinal to the aid of some recent earthquake victims, with $200,000 in aid ... i thought to myself, with all the riches taken in by The Vatican shouldn't that have been at least $2 million ? ...

American Protestantism may still be able to point the finger at The Church of Rome for such awful doctrines regarding Mary, etc., but there's a sizable segment who seems to have joined them in the quest for attainment of earthly riches ...

Can you say, "Pick up that phone, plant a seed (of greed), and see if God don't pour you out a blessing you won't be able to contain"! ...

It would be funny :-P ... if it wasn't so sad :-o ...

Hi Krispy,

Is there a link to the sermon you quoted in your opening post, please?

Catholic News Agency, Aug. 27, 2007

Krispy

Sister HopePurifies,

I think you may have misunderstood Krispy's meaning.

What you quoted from James is (of course) [i]not[/i] a perversion of truth, and it ties in with the good works which are mentioned in Ephesians 2, that we are to walk in [i]after[/i] we are saved.

In the context of the Ephesian people, that is, they (we) are to do this [i]instead of[/i] idolatry (drinking, sexual immorality, greed for personal gain) now that they (we) are saved.

James is dealing with something more though, at a doctrinal level, by saying that people who have faith will demonstrate their faith by their good works... Becoming a believer and ceasing to keep the outward works of the law (Old Covenant), doesn't mean we just sit around all day saying nice things to each other, but, that we are practical (for instance), by sharing our wealth to meet the needs of others.

(Although Paul's doctrinal point in Romans 6 is very different, it's the same sort of reasoning that he was writing against... that people might think that now they were believers, they didn't [i]need[/i] to give up sin, because grace would extend to forgive them again.... ([i]because[/i] they believe). Whereas, [i]because[/i] we understand how serious sin is, and how Jesus' death gives us power [u]over[/u] sin, we are to STOP sinning... :-o )

The other place that Krispy quoted, from Galatians, was dealing with yet another mindset, namely that of Jews who had been born again, but who had reverted to keeping Old Covenant legal practices as a means of trying to please God [i]instead[/i] of [u]walking in the Spirit, in the good works of Ephesians 2 and James[/u].

There is another reference in the New Testament in Hebrews 6, which reminds the reader to move on from their first repentances from 'dead works', towards perfection, in love labouring to minister (serve) and being established in hope of inheriting the promises through faith. ('Dead works' include pretty much any activity which a person might do to try to gain favour in God's sight [i]separate from faith[/i]),


I trust you can see (by these examples) that 'works', in scripture, is a minefield. Its relevance to Catholicism as a religious system, is that despite celebrating Christ's death regularly, no Catholic is given to believe that His death is sufficient to atone for their sin. They [i]must[/i] do good works [u]as well[/u] [i]in order to be saved[/i].


To give a further scriptural context, Paul mentions the works of [u]saved[/u] men as falling into one of two categories: either they will be eternally enduring, or, they will be shown as worthless when they burn up in the fire of God's judgement. Those men whose works survive the fire, will receive a reward (as well as salvation). These are the works which God ordained as part of His call to us to serve Him (in the manner described in Ephesians, I believe), which are relevant for all believers.

I Corinthians 3:9 - 15
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, [i]you are[/i] God's building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation [i]with[/i] gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on [i]it[/i] endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


It is typical of the leadership of the Catholic church over many centuries, to imply a scriptural basis for its instruction to its flock-members. But usually, closer examination shows that biblical concepts are [i]mixed up[/i] to the extent that the claim of honest scriptural basis is hard to justify (sometimes because there has been a curse added by Catholic church tradition, to anyone who believes the scripture in its fulness and true meaning).

In this case, the Pope's reference to receiving reward for one sort of good works is scriptural - but... not the sort of good works which the Catholic church requires of its members as a contribution to their claim for basic [i]salvation[/i].


I know you didn't ask, but I hope this breakdown of biblical 'works' references has made clearer the meaning of the differences between the 'works' in the leading post.

I think it's quite important to understand also, that while 'rewards' are scriptural, the parable of the unprofitable servant is probably where [i]we start![/i]

Thanks Krispy. Here is a link. Truly, much of what he said appears true, but, it is wreathed in conditions rather than proclaiming a free gift.

[url=http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10216]http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10216[/url]

Worship of MOTHER & CHILD spread from Babylon to the ends of the earth, but were called different names in the languages of the various counties where their worship appeared. The ancient Germans worshipped the virgin HERTHA with the child in the arms of his mother. The Scandinavians called her DISA pictured with her child. In Egypt, the mother and her child were worshiped as ISIS with the infant OSIRIS or HORUS seated on his mother's lap. In India, the mother and child were called DEVAKI and KRISHNA, and also ISI and ISWARA as they are worshiped to this day. In Asia, they were known as CYBELE and DEOIUS; in pagan Rome, as FORTUNA and JUPITER-PUER, or the boy JUPITER; in Greece, as CERES, the great mother with babe at her breast, or as IRENE, the goddess of peace, with the boy PLUTUS in her arms. Even in Tibet, China, and Japan, Jesuit missionaries were astonished to find the Roman counterpart of MADONNA and child. SHING MOO, the holy mother in China was portrayed with a child in her arms and a glory around her.


All this began with Nimrod, the Tower of Babel, in the Beginning of Genesis. The people were scattered, but took the pagan religion with them. Catholocism and ALL of their symbols, sacraments, etc, are taken form the pagan religions....now in Revelation called MYSTERY BABYLON.

We are called to come out of them!