contd.I would like to return to 1 Corinthians 7:17But as God hath distributed to every man, [b]as the Lord hath called every one[/b], so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.as Tyndale's rendering is divided differently between the sentences, making 'as the Lord hath called everyone', the beginning of a new paragraph. As the phrase I emboldened is often used to chide the partners of a broken or struggling marriage to continue persevering with marital disharmony or undivorced estrangement or divorced-but-not-remarried status, it deserves its own examination.First though, to Phillip's response.Phillip, I do see how you make this interpretation of Ephesians 2, but, there are several other scriptures which cannot be fitted into your thesis, which are relevant, including one from Ephesians 2 itself.14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, [that is,] [b]the law of commandments[/b] [contained] in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man [from] the two, [thus] making peace,16 and that He might reconcile [b]them [u]both[/u] to God[/b] in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off that is, [color=0033FF][the Gentiles][/color] and to those who were near [color=0033FF][that is to Israel who were near through the covenants of promise] [i][my amplification][/i][/color].18 [b]For through Him [u]we both[/u] have access by one Spirit to the Father[/b].
Israel was never in Christ is still not.
Israel was offered the same salvation we have after the cross and approx 15 years after the Cross Paul told them they had fulfilled what Esaias the prophet said unto our fathers,
What was the enmity slain? The middle wall of partition between us and God the Father and Having abolished in His flesh that enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
Hi Cindy,I hope you've been keeping up with the thread here... I am slowly moving towards all the other answers I've promised you.In the meanwhile, I have a rather long preamble to a question I'd like you to think about. I really don't want you to rush an answer down without giving the question deep consideration.Suppose you were a Jewish man in your twenties when Jesus was born, but, you'd never heard of him until He came to your town preaching, followed by an entourage of supporters and enormous crowds. By now, you're in your fifties. You've been married and divorced three times, the children of your first marriage are themselves married and you have grandchildren. You did eventually find a woman you could live with comfortably, and you have been married to her for several years. Whatever the priests and Pharisees have required of you, you have, however reluctantly at times, complied with, and without question. But suddenly, your life of religious complacency is challenged by the young preacher who is claiming to be the Messiah, who has healed one of your neighbours' children, and who is speaking candidly to the leaders of your local synagogue, with more word-for-word truth than you've ever heard about in your life. You hear more and more about the claims He makes for himself from the lodgers you take in while He's passing through, and you decide to join them to hear Him the next day. Completely unexpectedly to your personal culture of not rocking the boat, you are convinced He is who He says, and you quickly realise what this means for your normal religious practices... BIG CHANGES. You go all our for the baptism of repentance, and give yourself to keeping your word to God, and your new zeal for His ways.Months later, news of Pentecost arrives in your village, and you receive it with joy, are born again - and so is your wife.[b]How has God dealt with you over the broken hearts and marriages in your past, including your own?[/b]Cindy, I have put the question this way, because this must have been a common situation in the days of the apostles.
Hi Linn, You wrote:Here is what Paul said in Ephesians 522 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.In reference to Christ and the Church, :22 would be rendered: The bride of Christ submit yourself to your husband, for He is the Bridegroom. Submitting to Christ in the same way brides submit to their own husbands. Husbands are the Bride of Christ also23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.The Bridegroom is the Head of the Bride His Body The Church. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in everything.Therefore just as the Bride is subject to Her Bridegroom, (Christ) so let individual brides be subject to Christ in every way and everything.25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,Christ loves His Bride and gave Himself for her.26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,That Christ might put His Bride The Church to the use of what she was intended for from before the foundation of the World. "Ye must be born again of water and the Spirit" "Out of Her belly shall flow rivers of Living Water, Christ, and the Word most certainly is Christ in us. That is our cleansing. 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.That He might present His Bride to Himself a glorious church, GLORIOUS CHURCH. A perfect bride. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.No interpretation needed.29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord [does] the church.Christ does not and never will hate His own Flesh, which we are His Body. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.For of His Flesh of His bones, we are. Husband and Wife the same, one flesh.31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."We are to leave our old family and our old husband Satan and be joined to our New Husband Jesus Christ. Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.The old husband is the author of sin our old husband Satan, in other words we are dead from him, or he is dead to us.33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife [see] that she respects [her] husband. Now to us with respect to how Christ loves His Bride let each one of us so love our own wife as himself. Christ must love Himself or He could not love His Bride, Why does Christ love Himself? Because His Father's Love lives and moves and has its being In The Son. So also us, for He is our love and life in whom we live and move and have our being. This is how we are to treat each other in Christ, and even more of Husband and Wife.That is how Eph 2: is connected to marriage. Taking away the enmity between God and His children in Christ. Making the two One, By slaying the enmity between God and man and between husband and wife.In Christ: Phillip
_________________Phillip
Dear Phillip,
Husbands are the Bride of Christ also
The bride of Christ submit yourself to your husband, for He is the Bridegroom. [b]Submitting to Christ in the same way brides submit to their own husbands[/b].
Therefore just as the Bride is subject to Her Bridegroom, (Christ) so let individual brides be subject to Christ in every way and everything.
Christ does not and never will hate His own Flesh, which we are His Body.
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
That is how Eph 2: is connected to marriage. Taking away the enmity between God and His children in Christ. Making the two One, By slaying the enmity between God and man and between husband and wife.
I am not using man and woman in these analogies but the bride is both man and woman and as you say, son's are both man and woman. You wrote: "Do you mean here, that individual 'brides' are both the men and the women who hold Christ as their Head?" "We" are the bride of Christ. In our oneness with Christ is where The Marriage between Christ and His Body the Church is the picture of what an earthly marriage between a man and women should be and that it should image the truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Especially when it says we are part of His Body and Part of His Bones. Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.This goes so much deeper than we have ever thought possible. The same as marriage between a man and a woman. Pro 30:19 The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a maid. We as born again believers are in Christ which Paul calls the mystery. Then He uses the mystery of a man and a woman for his analogy of our Oneness in Christ. It would work just the same as using our oneness in Christ as the oneness a man and woman have in marriage to each other especially if both are in Christ. Do you see what I am trying to say. The words of this wonderful mystery are not able to be conveyed by my limited knowledge of English. There is something so much deeper than we see on the surface, but it is there. Some day the Holy Spirit will give the words to bring the knowledge to our mind that we might convey it to other. But for now the oneness we have in Christ we also have with each other and because of the one flesh of husband and wife it is most shown by their union in marriage. Ephesians 5:29-30 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.I think this goes deeper than just a man taking care of his own flesh, I thing if man and woman are one flesh in marriage, this is the flesh being spoken of and the word "It" is the same word when Jesus is describing the Spirit as blowing from the sound thereof where we don't see, but "thereof" is the sound and the same word as "it". Which is a baffling wind, strange.This man is not just a man but is a "man, woman or thing" in Strongs. It goes deeper that just a man hurting his wife. It includes woman hurting her husband. Then it says "we" are members of His Body, of His Flesh and of His Bones. If we hurt each other we are hurting ourself even more. Christ went to the depth of Love and did not hurt himself but let mankind Hurt Him for our sakes. The Husband and Wife should see the same thing in each other. Giving self for each other is the same as Christ giving Himself for us. This is the Love and mystery Paul is speaking of. Still mysterious and still much more to be revealed. In the Mystery of Christ in us and each other: Phillip
Phillip said:
Giving self for each other is the same as Christ giving Himself for us. This is the Love and mystery Paul is speaking of.
Ephesians 5:19-21 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.Mutual submission, mutual respect, Love, all as man and woman is submitting ourselves to one another: 5293. hupotassoSearch for G5293 in KJVSLupotassw hupotasso hoop-ot-as'-sofrom 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.To one another: 240. allelonSearch for G240 in KJVSLallhlwn allelon al-lay'-loneGenitive plural from 243 reduplicated; one another:--each other, mutual, one another, (the other), (them-, your-)selves, (selves) together (sometimes with 3326 or 4314).Free in Christ and Free in each other in Christ.In Christ: Phillip
Dorcas, I didnt check too many pages back, but I dont see that lastblast has ever given any response to all that work you presented.http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_690665/mpage_67/tm.htmShes been about at other forums, so I dont understand why she wouldnt take some time to get back with you.You did a fine job in your presentation, laying out a wonderful foundation some pages back.I thought it laid things out very well and set the stage to show just how Jesus exception means just what it says.If I were you, Id save all that you wrote for future reference and discussion....I may go back thru this thread and save what you wrote as well, if thats ok with you :)
Hi FOC,Interesting discussion in that link you've posted. Thanks. I noticed I'm not the only person alive who believes the marriage covenant is made between the two people marrying each other, and not between the individuals and God. That's reassuring.I've been without internet access at home for a few weeks, or probably I'd have come back here to continue my comment on the decree by the Council of Trent. I do intend to complete it, when I'm back online with more leisure.
I may go back thru this thread and save what you wrote as well, if thats ok with you :)
Hi Cindy,After reading the discussion on the other forum, it occurs to me to make a comment which has been circling the back of my mind for a long time...So far, this thread has majored on whether a man can divorce his wife if she has committed adultery (fornication, as Jesus decrees), and you have resisted strongly the right of a man to take this option, insisting that to show he's a real Christian (I assume) he MUST forgive the wayward spouse. You completely reject the notion that he may feel so betrayed, that he follows the example of God with Israel, and chooses to divorce her. You reject the word that Jesus gave, which contains no qualification such as, for example, the number of adulterous events... that is, you seem to feel that even if adultery was the estranged wife's lifestyle, he should continue offering to share his bed with her. With this in mind, you also assume that even if he is nauseous at this prospect and has found out about the woman's adultery after the first occasion, [i][b]he[/i][/b] is the unreasonable one, for finding within his own heart, a finality of ending to the love within which he first held his now ex-spouse - that is, 'ex' by her prior choice.OK, so here's my thought to the Christian woman who has fallen into the sin of adultery and who genuinely wants to be someone else's wife.... Why not let her husband divorce her?And rather than pressing him to accept her word for her repentance towards God - as if that somehow heals his broken faculty of trust (of her) and laying guilt on him for his knowing his own heart sufficiently to desire to carry through a legitimate divorce - [i][b]allow[/i][/b] her to be set free from that marriage, to begin to rebuild her life as a single woman?And yes :-o if she has made her peace with God, and she feels freed by His forgiveness to remarry :-o let her show her changed heart and mind in a new, faithful marriage relationship (if anyone [i]will[/i] have her)?Isn't this option as much included in the 'exception' verses of Matthew 5:32 and 19:9, as the option of the faithful husband to divorce her?
