Much of what has been written has deeply saddened me, for the vast majority of it is the type of self centered sanctification that ultimately ends up in despair.

Have we all forgotten that we are Justified by faith? That is the acceptance into Heaven, when the Almighty Judge imparts life to a soul, and He declares them justified, He will not blot them out. Now we must also realize that true justification will produce sanctification as a process until glorification.

I digress as the whole reason we are accepted at all is Christ alone. There are no amount of good works you can do to be accpeted by the Father if you are not in Him, and conversely if you are in Him, you have every blessing.

Christ is our great Reward, not sinlessness, not sanctification, but Christ Himslef, the One who died for the ungodly that they might live to God.

Brethren much of what has been written here is no different than the Roman Catholic mixture of justification and sanctification. They blur the lines so that none can be justified unless sanctification is perfect. Yet as we all know if we are honest, it is an ongoing battle day by day. How then could any be saved? In the Roman system they invented purgatory to help explain away this dilemma.

Much of this also seems very much like the judaizers who were saying one could not be a CHristian unless... To them Paul adamantly said that a man is justified by faith alone. Consider this passage,
"Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

The point of the Christian belief is that man cannot be good enough, even after conversion. All is Christ, evrything we have is because of and through Christ.

Make much of Christ, preach Him, and the hope of life in Him, and through Him. Then let the Holy Spirit do His work of sanctification in those who are legitimately His, else we run the risk of becoming legal tyrants and ascetics who make much of our work and little to nothing of His.

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patrick heaviside

Believe me, I mean no trouble here, but is it wrong to put the same post in two places ?

It sort of splits this discussion I think.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17545&forum=36&6

I believe that Josef completely contradicts Jesus when he said in his article:

Josef,

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE answer these questions!! It's very important! I posted them repeatedly on another forum, but you seemed to continually ignore them. I am hoping that you just didn't see them, and I am still believing in your willingness to defend your view.

Failure to directly answer these honest questions would only leave me to assume, that answering these questions would do great damage to your position, or that you simply haven't thoroughly thought about the issue at hand. Failure to answer these honest and sincere questions directly must reveal that you hold to an undefendable position.

These are it:

1. Does God want Christians to be sinless in this life?

2. Do real Christians want to be sinless in this life?

3. Does God want to reveal to us all our sin, all our "unknown sin"?

4. Do Christians want to repent of all sin, even "unknown sin"?

5. If we ask God to show us all our sin, will He answer that prayer?

If God will not answer that prayer, why not??

6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin?

If so, could we turn from all the sin that God shows us, even turn from all our sin if God shows us all of it??

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What is it that keeps us from being perfect?

I have heard only two reasons from people why we cannot be perfect.

1. Ignorance keeps us from perfection (As Patrick - Josef - Andrew maintain) i.e. unknown sin.

But again, what keeps God from revealing unknown sins to those who want them to be revealed? Does God not reveal sin to sinners who do not want them to be revealed? How much MORE would a sin hating God reveal all sin to those who want them to be revealed!!

2. The flesh or the body (as someone just posted) keeps us from being perfect in this life.

But what about the flesh or the body keeps us from being perfect? Is the flesh a sin itself, as Augustine and others maintained? Or does the flesh force us to sin, as others maintain?

Isn't the flesh only an INFLUENCE or a TEMPTATION towards sin, but not a sin itself, and not a CAUSATION to sin?? And isn't our will free? In which freedom, we can choose to submit to our flesh or choose to submit to the spirit?

If the flesh is only a tempation, and the human will is free, then the flesh does not prevent anyone from being perfect!!

It would also seem that many define "inward sin" as a fleshly emotion or a feeling.

But a fleshly emotion or a feeling (lusts of the flesh) are not sin at all, but are temptation.

Sin is when the will voluntarily submits to unlawfully gratify the feeling, emotion, lust.

James says that we are TEMPTED by our own lust, and when we yeild to it, then it "bringeth forth sin". The flesh, or inward emotions, are a mere temptation. But yeilding to them is a sin.

But inward sin cannot be an involuntary emotion or an involuntary lust. Inward sin, which Christ COMMANDED the Pharisees to clean out, must be a voluntary committal of the will, or a sinfulness of the heart.

Inward sin can be nothing but the inward heart determined to sin, a selfish intention, or a will to sin.

Hense, to look with lust is adultery, to hate is murder. And why we are responsible to clean out the inside of the cup as well as the outside. And how all sin comes from the heart, that is, all sin comes from the will.

But Christian perfection is a perfection of love, a purity of the heart, when a man's intention is totally blameless, when he loves God supremely and his neighbor equally, seeking their welfare.

Correct me if i am wrong, But, I havent heard anything about the role of the Holy Spirit in holiness.........hmmmmmm
David

If we have died with Christ, and He is our all in all, and He dwells in us, can we ever miss the mark? Where are "we" then--our thoughts, our desires, our ambitions, our worries? Will He who began a good work in us not complete it?

The Scripture says that "in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation" (Gal. 6:15). It is Christ--not us--who makes all things new. If my simple, childish faith in Him is not enough, then what is?

In Christ,
Slavyan

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Jeff Mollman