| Poster | Thread | KingJimmy
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Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Forgive me for the choppy nature of my posts, which are rather limited in this thread. I'm only able to squeeze in a moment here and there. Hopefully the Lord will afford me the time to address these things more fully.
I'd like to offer some thoughts on the "context" of Romans 9-11, and the interpretation that I am attempting to put forward. Indeed, I would argue along the same lines as CJakForest is arguing, that Romans 9-11 is truly the thrust and heart of the entire letter.
Far from being a side issue, Romans 9-11 is central to Paul's argument beginning in Romans 1:16.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, [u]to the Jew first[/u] and also to the Greek.
And why to the Jew first? Because it is to them that:
Romans 9:3 ...[Paul's] kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 [u]who are Israelites, [b]to whom belongs[/b][/u] the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
This is in keeping with what we see reiterated throughout the entire Old Testament:
Amos 3:1 Hear this word which the Lord has spoken against you, sons of Israel, against the entire family which He brought up from the land of Egypt: 2 [u]You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth[/u]; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
For out of all the families of the earth, God elected one man and his offspring by whom "all the nations of the earth would be blessed." (Gen 12:3) For they alone are the ones whom God entered into covenant with nationally, and they alone are the ones whom God brought out of the land of Egypt. For God has sanctified them and made them distinct based on His eternal purposes.
Such is why Christ went only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and bid His apostles in their early ministry during the days of His first advent to do the same. For as Jesus told the Samaritan woman, salvation is of the Jews. For to them belong all these things. Which is why Jesus during His earthly ministry focused on preaching the gospel to the Jews. For it was to them that the kingdom was to be offered, for it was to them that it was promised.
As the Lord also said, to whom much is given, much shall be required. And such is also why the Old Testament prophets could say that Israel was to pay doubly for their sins, and why the calamities that befell them were so harsh. For God had chosen them alone out of all the families of the earth. And if they were to receive such a great honor, then, failure to be the people God called them to be-- a holy nation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people -- would result in a greater punishment. Which is why Paul could also say:
Romans 2:9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of [u]the Jew first[/u] and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, [u]to the Jew first[/u] and also to the Greek.
And if you notice, most of the verses I have quoted from Romans thus far are still early on in Paul's argument, which builds up to it's culmination, in chapter 11.
...More to come...
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Jimmy H
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|  2007/6/9 11:48 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
On the contrary Ron, we are interpreting Rom 9-11 in the context of the whole. From Rom 1-8 we see the charge being laid against humanity, the fact that Israel is not exempt on the grounds of nationality, onto the basis, means and effect of justification, regeneration and adoption. From here 9-11 maps out God's purpose of this salvation, in the context of the mystery of Israel and the church, concluding in the statement "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." The "therefore" is what was communicated in 9-11. It could be said that 9-11 is the purpose for the book of Romans, with 1-8 setting the platform for what is discussed, and 12-15 serving as a logical outcome and ch 16 being a final personal greeting to the receivers.
To say that the purpose of Romans is Romans 9-11 is the 'tail wagging the dog'. The purpose of Romans is so clearly stated that it is surely impossible to miss it;
[color=0000FF]So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:15-16 KJVS)[/color]
It is important to think through the historical context of the epistle. The 'church' at Rome was probably predominantly 'Jewish' in character from its beginnings. However Jews had been expelled from Rome by Claudius somewhere around AD 45?
[color=0000FF]And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them. (Acts 18:2 KJVS)[/color]
We can presume that Jewish and 'Jewish' Christians filtered back into Rome but the general composition of the 'church in Rome' would have been affected by this. The history of the 'church in Rome' then was first predominantly Jewish, then almost exclusively Gentile and then predominantly Gentile with some Jewish returnees. There were some 'Jewish' Christians in the 'church in Rome' when Paul wrote his epistle but they would have been a small minority; this would explain Paul's address to the 'Jews' in Rom 2:17ff.
So I see Paul writing to a gathering of the saints who may well have been wondering what the implications were for the ancient people of God, but I doubt that it could really be said that the Romans 1-8 is really only an introduction to Romans 9-11.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2007/6/9 16:29 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
philologos wrote:
So I see Paul writing to a gathering of the saints who may well have been wondering what the implications were for the ancient people of God, but I doubt that it could really be said that the Romans 1-8 is really only an introduction to Romans 9-11.
I am not implying that the [b]only[/b] purpose of Romans is 9-11, but that the purpose of the Gentiles redemption (which makes up the major component of the content of Romans) is contained in 9-11. Romans purpose is to lay out the pretext, basis and means of the Gentiles' redemption, which is not by any means different than that of the Jews, namely through faith in Christ alone. What I am saying is the Rom 9-11 shows the purpose of the the Gentiles actual redemption, therefore it is the "purpose of the purpose", making it the primary concern.
Ray Comfort applies a similar logic when explaining why he gives much emphasis on the Law in evangelism, by comparing to the doctor, who having spent much time explaining the disease, only needs to briefly mention the cure. Roman 1-8 goes to great lengths to break apart any notion that neither Jew nor Gentile can claim to take comfort in their ethnicities' preference in the sight of God, within the context of His offer of grace, so that 9-11 can go on to explain the symbiotic relationship between the Jew and the Greek, without any bias.
Regarding historical context, I believe Parkyns, in his church history series, pointed out the fact that Acts clearly states that there were many priests and Levites who came to faith in Jerusalem, but then as the apostles emphasised the corruption of the Jewish faith, more and more, they began to oppose the gospel. And God allowed this to occur in order to get the believers to obey His commandment to go to the world with the gospel.
Paul's ministry, prior to Athens, in the light of what Romans teaches, could be summarised as such:
1) Enter town
2) Preach Gospel to Jews
3) Jews reject gospel (cut out of the vine)
4) Preach to the Gentiles (grafted in)
5) Jews stir up mob against Paul
The only exemption to this, of note, was Berea, where the Jews from Thessolonica caught wind of what was going on and then came to raise up their own mob. Consider how King Saul's handling of his rejection by God, and it's effect on his behaviour toward David, who was "grated" into his role as king, so to speak, serves as allegory of Israel's handling of being cut out. Consider, also how Paul's own life serves as a type of Israel's restoration, coming from such a severe persecutory mind, to being the very means of deliverance of the gospel to the Gentiles (the Law going forth out of Zion, after the nation is "born in a day").
Whether or not the Roman church was predominately Jewish, or not is irrelevant. If Paul is laying forth a principle, of Israel being cut off, so that Gentiles can be grafted in, but that Gentiles can be cut out, that Israel can be grafted in with greater ease, and this principle serves to point toward a future Time of Jacob's Trouble, then it would make no difference. The message is conveyed so that both Jew and Gentile will understand their own role, in context with the others'.
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2007/6/9 20:41 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Regarding historical context, I believe Parkyns, in his church history series, pointed out the fact that Acts clearly states that there were many priests and Levites who came to faith in Jerusalem, but then as the apostles emphasised the corruption of the Jewish faith, more and more, they began to oppose the gospel. And God allowed this to occur in order to get the believers to obey His commandment to go to the world with the gospel.
Are you blaming Jewish rejection of the gospel on the apostles?
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2007/6/10 9:19 | Profile |
| | Re: All Israel will be Saved? | |
Yesterday I cancelled a post I had written, but today, I'd like to mention what was on my mind, without getting directly into the discussion as a participant.
To Aaron,
It seems to me that you are ignoring what God said to Eve, as if there was no promise of gentile salvation before Jews ever existed.
Also, Jesus Himself in John 10 categorically states He has 'other sheep' to bring into 'one fold' which would be under 'one shepherd'.
It is the [i]Jews[/i] who had become unaware of this, in their repetitious rejection of God's word to them. This is why Paul, later, goes back to Abraham to remind them of the time when there was righteousness through faith [i]without[/i] circumcision.
Also, although you are happy to state faith as the qualification for both Jews and gentiles, you make it sound as if gentiles are not in quite the same class of believers, as Jewish converts. My point is, that God had not forgotten either 'the nations', or the Jews. He always intended to save those who would believe.
As you may have picked up from other of my posts, I don't believe gentiles join 'Jews' when they become Christians, but that both become joined to [i]Christ[/i] (the Root and Branch), as they are planted in the likeness of His death, and raised together in His resurrection.
Concerning your mention of a final haulocaust, when you say two thirds of Jews will die, I wonder if you would post the verse(s) of scripture from which you interpret this for me, please?
(The thing I am having trouble with in your interpretation, is that the third of Jews who will be saved through faith in Christ surely began with the disciples, and [i]all[/i] the succeeding generations since then?)
Lastly, I think there is a serious problem with 'fulfilled Jew' thinking. It seems to imply a new level of law-keeping, rather than a new law to keep, and also to turn them towards their first-birth relationship with Christ the Man, rather than elucidate their [i]new birth[/i] through Christ alive from the dead.
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| | 2007/6/10 11:29 | |
| | Re: | | This is a wearisome thread. I know that there is a "preferring the Jews over the Church" thinking in our midst. I know people that will bend over backwards to help a Jew but at the same time tripping over 'gentiles'.
Today the man with the "Gold Ring" and "Costly Clothing" are the Jews. (Not that they have any of these things, but it's our atitude towards them) As long as we believe that they have some special place in God's heart, Christs death on the cross is of no avail.
Did Christ break down the middle wall of partition that was between us, or not? Eph2:14
Did Paul say that there is no "DISTINCTION" between the Jew and the Greek? Rom10:12
Did Paul say that a true Jew is not one that is OUTWARDLY, but that which is INWARDLY? Rom2:29
Are not Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ? Does Christ love every part of His body, or does He only love one part and despises the others?
This is grieving the Spirit of God by our bias interpretation of the scriptures, favouring races over the body of Christ is not right, we are dividing the body of Christ.
This is a great deception.
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I know that the discussion is "And all Israel shall be saved".
I wish that someone would please read this in it's context. We take one line out and base our whole doctrine on it. Quote:
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 For this is my covenant unto them, [b][color=990000]when I shall take away their sins[/color][/b].
The answer to when ALL Israel shall be saved is when the DELIVERER would come and do what?? "When I shall take away their sins". When was that pray tell???
Can we all agree that it was Jesus Christ that took away their sins???
Now I want you to consider the scriptures concerning "ALL". The "ALL" Israel that Paul is speaking of has to be in line with the rest of the word. Quote:
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. [b]For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel[/b]:
Quote:
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this [b][size=small]present time[/size][/b] also there is a [b][color=990000]remnant[/color][/b] according to the election of grace.
Your "ALL" is the REMNANT that are called according the election of grace.
The "Present Time" that Paul was speaking of was 2000 years ago. Literally, thousands of Jews were being saved, scores were coming into the Kingdom. The book of Acts just gives us 2 accounts of Peters crusades that that REMNANT was being saved. And then Paul went into the world, reaching both Jew and Gentile.
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| | 2007/6/10 12:16 | |
| | Re: | | I'd just like to make little discussion on this for now, because I feel it's not necessarily pivotal here on this forum, but just one aspect of His economy that seems good that we've been able to look at together.
If someone could look into these two verses, where the words are underlined especially ...
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the [u]olive tree which is wild by nature[/u], and wert grafted contrary to nature into a [u]good olive tree[/u]: how much more shall [u]these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree[/u]?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of [u]this mystery[/u], lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, [u]until[/u] the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
and just these ...
Zech. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
John 19:37 And again another Scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Rev. 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Although the whole of Zec chpts 12 through 14 are one discussion about "that day".
Thanks. |
| | 2007/6/10 12:24 | |
| | Re: Will All Israel be Saved? | | Quote:
Zec 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Thanks Annie.
This verse brings immediately to mind these, also.
Malachi 3:3
He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver;
He will purify the sons of Levi,
And purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer to the LORD
An offering in righteousness.
Hebrews 7
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need [i]was there[/i] that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
12 For [b]the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of [u]the law[/u][/b].
1 Peter 1
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 that [b]the genuineness of your faith[/b], [i]being[/i] [b]much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ[/b],
8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see [i]Him,[/i] yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, [b]receiving the end of your faith[/b] -- the [b]salvation[/b] of [i]your[/i] souls.
Revelation 1: end 5, beginning 6
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and [b]has made us kings and priests to His God and Father[/b],
Hebrews 1
8 But to the Son [i]He says:[/i]
"Your throne, O God, [i]is[/i] forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness [i]is[/i] the scepter of Your Kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
1 John 2
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. [color=006699]And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.[/color]
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. |
| | 2007/6/10 12:45 | | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | I didn't want to widen the topic too much but I think that we have to in order to understand the overall context.
On occasion our Lord referred to the Temple as 'His Father's House' but on a fateful day he seemed to see things differently...
[color=0000FF]Matt. 23:38 (KJVS) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Luke 13:35 (KJVS) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. [/color]
It seems as if he had abandoned the whole system to them. and what are we to make of the statement...
[color=0000FF]Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matthew 21:43 KJVS)[/color]
edit:11 June 2007. You will notice that Matt 21 comes before Matthew 23. This seems to indicate that Matt 23 is the judgment that was threatened in Matt 21.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2007/6/10 13:06 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I think you hit the problem right on the head, Ron.
What we do is take single verses to prove our view rather than whole chpt.s and other verses given.
Edit: what I meant to add was what you already know .... Scriptures don't cancel out Scripture and must be interpreted by the whole of Scripture.
Still hoping someone may consider looking at the verses I posted too. Thanks! |
| | 2007/6/10 13:11 | |
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