Thank you for that word Pastor.
Pro 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.
Pro 15:23 A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!

I needed that post. Thank you again. And Thanks for this PEACE thread.

Psa 17:5 Hold up my goings in thy paths, that my footsteps slip not.
Psa 17:6 I have called upon thee, for thou wilt hear me, O God: incline thine ear unto me, and hear my speech.
Psa 17:7 Show thy marvelous lovingkindness, O thou that savest by thy right hand them which put their trust in thee from those that rise up against them.
Psa 17:8 Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings.

Praying you are being strengthen in the inward man and feeling His confidence & JOY.
Bless you.
me again

Pastor,

This past weekend we were in FL to attend the funeral of my husband's nephew's wife who died suddenly from a brain hemmorage. We stayed for the Sunday worship service and the fellowship meal which followed. Across the table from us sat a very interesting couple who had an unusual testimony. After hearing this I feel compelled to share it on SI, on this thread.

Bro. Tim was working in the Pentegon for the Navy in the intelligence division, had given 19 1/2 years of service to the military. In the Pentegon there was a Bible study attended by other career officers of whom he was a part. One day the leader asked Tim to share how the LORD has been working with him. He was reluctant to share this, thought he may not be understood, but after careful consideration, plunged ahead and shared. He told them how the LORD has been increasing the conviction in him how a Christian cannot serve in the military and be faithful to Jesus' commands. Interestingly enough, he was not the only person in that group that was being convicted in this area. Bro. Tim felt the LORD leading him to resign from the Navy, forfeiting his pension and other benefits that were to be his IF he continued on six more months. He said I did this all in obedience to what the LORD was telling me to do. (One other officer resigned later for the same reason.)

Bro. Tim went on to tell us how the LORD had been teaching them in different areas, bringing conviction into their lives. He did it one issue at a time. The first issue they were confronted with was the one of the headship veiling. The second one was non-conformity to the world, third: once-saved-always-saved and lastly, non-resistance. (Time prevented further discussion. So I do not know what issue they are dealing with now, except knowing what God wants them to do career-wise: He was fired from his teaching position at a public HS because he ministered to his students spiritually: the school administrator was a lesbian, told him he did not belong there, no comment on his performance as a teacher..)

Bro. Tim shared another story: he knew of an AF pilot who ws having doubts about his service in the military when he was shipped to the Middle East. This pilot was shot down. He said there was no good reason for this to have happened. He felt like he knew if he shot at the enemy, that pilot would go to a Christless eternty so he opted to not shoot. I am unsure whether the US pilot was killed...I think he was but cannot say it for certain.

Anyhow, we were blessed in visiting with him and his wife and just thought I would share this for ya'lls edification and encouragement.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

PS: Pastorfrin, do you know this fellow? He lives on the eastern seaboard...

_________________
Sandra Miller

Hi ginnyrose,
Sorry to hear of your families loss, may the Lord's peace keep the families hearts and minds in their time of mourning.

This testimony is truly a blessing and a confirmation how the Lord is preparing His people for what is to come.
I have had a heavy burden to pray for God’s people to be prepared for what is coming.
We all need to realize it is His Word and His example we have been called to follow and not our emotions or a natural tendency to return blow for blow. If we cannot trust Him now what will happen when our families are used to get us to deny Him? So many think they will be able to physically defend against such persecution but it will only play into the hands of the enemy. If people would stop and think what caused the early church to grow when such horrendous things were being done to them they would begin to grasp the teaching of non-resistance. Holding unto our confidence steadfast unto the end can only be done through the Spirit and any physical attempt to hold unto it will end in defeat.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 10:35
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Rev. 13:9-10
If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

2 Cor. 10:4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Rev. 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


I truly believe our Lord is speaking too many on this issue and is preparing His people for what is ahead; why else would men and women give up careers and their lives to obey the Lord when everything in this world and most of the religious system calls it foolishness?

Quote:
"PS: Pastorfrin, do you know this fellow? He lives on the eastern seaboard..."

No sister I do not believe I do since I live quite some distance from the East coast.

Thank you again sister for sharing with us this testimony.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Brothers and Sisters,

“Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.”

I have a few questions for all to ponder.
Jesus himself commanded His disciples to teach all nations to observe all things that He had taught them. In light of this; why do so many say the Sermon on the Mount is not for us today?

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus gave instruction to His disciples not to resist evil but to turn the other cheek.
He said if someone takes your coat to give them your cloak also.
If you are compelled to go a mile then go two.
To give to them that ask and to them that would borrow from you not to turn away.

Matthew 5:38-42
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Why don’t we? Instead we shoot people who would take our possessions using the reasoning that it is mine I worked for what I have. Totally ignoring Jesus teaching in Matt. 6 which says:

Matthew 6:19-34
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: [20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: [21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [22] The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. [23] But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. [25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? [26] Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? [27] Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? [28] And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: [29] And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. [30] Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? [31] Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? [32] (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. [33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. [34] Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Who do we trust?

Now Jesus takes it beyond our reasoning’s when he says:

Matthew 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Our reasoning, well you can love your enemy and still kill them and then do you pray for their soul, how?

Paul tells us exactly what Jesus meant in Rom. 12

Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Paul does not say to kill them, he said to feed them and give them drink. Jesus did not say to kill them; but to love them and pray for them, and not one disciple every said to kill your enemy.

Jesus said:
John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So why are we so intent on fighting and killing to keep what is ours?

James makes it very plain in James 4
James 4:1-6
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. [3] Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. [4] Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. [5] Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? [6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Why in light of the scripture are we so afraid of losing what we claim God has given us?
If He wants it back do you not think He can take it, or will we shoot Him as well?

James 3:13-18
Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. [14] But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. [15] This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [16] For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. [17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Why would Jesus spend His entire earthly ministry teaching His disciples these things if He was not preparing them to teach these very things to all who would believe?

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Where is our heart, what kingdom do we belong to and who is our king?

Psalm 121:2
My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.


In His Love
pastorfrin

Amen, that is a very encouraging testimony.
Pray for others that we know in similar postions.
Thank you!

I like coming to this thread because of the title of it. "Peace" is here.

Here or the Devotional board.

I got this in an email from a Pastor up in N.Y..

It touched right where I needed it to today.

[b] Oh, the fullness, pleasure, sheer excitement of knowing God on Earth! I care not if I never raise my voice again for Him, if only I may love Him, please Him. Mayhap in mercy He shall give me a host of children that I may lead them through the vast star fields to explore His delicacies, Whose finger ends set them to burning.
But if not, if only I may see Him, touch His garments, smile into His eyes -- ah then, not stars nor children shall matter, only Himself.
... Jim Elliot[/b]

Pastorfrin-

Thank you for all of the posts and resources! They have been so refreshing to read. I hope that when I move to Chicago in 4 weeks or so, I can find a good church with a statement of nonviolence.

I know you have said some words and posted some articles already, but I don't have time to comb through the many pages of this thread right now. Could you post some information concerning the relationship between Jesus, and the thick violence surrounding the OT? I am having difficulty explaining this to my friends.

Thank you!

-K_DAY

Hi K_DAY,

Ginnyrose posted back on page 3 an excellent testimony on this very subject, I think you will find it helpful.
We will be praying the Lord will guide you to a peace loving fellowship.
I have added the post by ginnyrose below.
In His Love
pastorfrin
_________________________________________________

By ginnyrose:
"Pacifism vs Biblical Nonresistance and My Testimony
As I read through this thread, I do not see where the issues of pacifism vs nonresistance is addressed. For many people these two concepts are one and the same, yet they are very different in its application to life and Biblical principles and therein lies the resistance many have towards this doctrine.

Pacifism differs from nonresistance. And here is a description as given by [the late] J. C. Wenger, a noted Mennonite scholar: When one turns away from theoretical considerations to actual life, however, he discovers that the terms pacifism and nonresistance are not always Synonymous. Guy F. Hershberger distinguishes pacifism from biblical nonresistance in four respects: (1) The pacifist may devote his labors to the abolition of war, making international peace his major goal, while the New Testament nonresistant is concerned primarily to bring men and women to the experience of "peace with God" through responding to the glorious gospel of Christ in repentance and faith. The ensuing relationship of peace-both with God and with men-is far deeper and more meaningful than the absence of warfare. (2) Pacifism as a movement does not always reckon as seriously as it should with the depths of sin in the human heart, and consequently, is overly optimistic about the possible abolition of war. (3) Pacifism sometimes fails to recognize the role of the threat of force in the peace-keeping function of the state -- in the preservation of law and order. In this task, the state functions as an agent of the wrath of God against sin, and even employs the threat of bodily harm if the evildoer resists. (4) Finally, the pacifist sometimes fails to see his role as one of absolute nonresistance and a willingness to suffer injustice, and to overcome evil with good, and he compromises an absolute position by "nonviolent resistance"-by behavior which is more Gandhian than Christian.

More can be read on this subject by J.C. Wenger at: http://www.bibleviews.com/Biblicalnonresist.html

Now for a brief explanation of my own pilgrimage in this area of nonresistance.

I was broguht up in the conservative Anabaptist tradition, taught that serving in the military is not for the Christian, but I also entertained doubts similar to ones raised on this thread. I asked our leaders these questions but nobody answered them to my satisfaction. And so life went on...until I was about 40 years old and I started to read brother Isaiah's writings. Up to this point I did not enjoy the OT prophets..thought they were so redundant in their message...I just did not get it. Understand?

Now, I had been taught the NT concepts were introduced to the Jewish people through the OT prophets, most noteably in Isaiah. An instructor in Jewish Evangelism at Bible School told us one can use the book of Isaiah to bring a person to the LORD. As a young woman I then wondered who on earth could ever understand that book! So I remained ignorant of Isaiah for many years..until one day the Holy Spirit inspired me to read it, study it. Wow! was I ever in for some surprises! Today, I count it among my favorite books in the Bible.

So I read Isaiah. Then I came to chapter 22: 5-11: 5: For it is a day of trouble, and of treading down, and of perplexity by the Lord GOD of hosts in the valley of vision, breaking down the walls, and of crying to the mountains.
6: And Elam bare the quiver with chariots of men and horsemen, and Kir uncovered the shield.
7: And it shall come to pass, that thy choicest valleys shall be full of chariots, and the horsemen shall set themselves in array at the gate.
8: And he discovered the covering of Judah, and thou didst look in that day to the armour of the house of the forest.
9: Ye have seen also the breaches of the city of David, that they are many: and ye gathered together the waters of the lower pool.
10: And ye have numbered the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses have ye broken down to fortify the wall.
11: Ye made also a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool: but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago.
Here God is chiding them for depending on their defenses to protect them from the enemy.

Fast forword to chapter 30:1,2:"Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!". Hmmm, now God challenged their act of trusting in a foreign nation for their protection. This concept is detailed more plainly in chapter 31:1: "Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong;, but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!
Now if you wil go to chapter 36, you read in detail how Rabshakeh tried to get Hezekiah to submit to their aggression. They played an fascinating game of intimidation and persuasion. But Hezekiah remained silent and they went before the LORD in prayer who then supernaturally delivered Judah from this idoltrous nation.

Now I read this and was stunned at the concepts I read in the OT, of all places. So I did some more checking...did God command Judah after Isaiah's ministy to go to battle against anyone? I read the Chronicles, Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah, and Esther - all books of history. The only time one reads of mass revenge taken by the Jews upon their enemies was after they were in Babylon, as recorded in Esther. But this was not a command given by God. What I did find was that the time after Isaiah the history deals primarily with the spiritual condition of Judah: their apostasy and revivals. That is all. God did not ever again tell them to go to battle and "I will give them into your hand."

Jesus comes on the scene some 400 years after Malachi and what he said about peace: "He that takes the sword shall persih by sword" made a lot of sense when you compare what Brother Isaiah said hundreds of years earlier.

Now, how do we respond to the need to protect us from evil men? This is one of the most often asked questions. Perhaps another one might be in order: how often are godly people victims of violent crimes, like rape, murder, robbery? Very seldom. Very few are the incidents of godly people being victimized by acts of violence. Does this not demonstrate God's protecting hand on his children? that we do not have to resort to violence to protect ourselves? And if a godly person does get killed, what is so bad about that? But the children you ask? Do they not belong to God, and is God not big enough to take care of them? Many children from godly homes have been victims of accidents and no one is questioning God about this!

Anyhow, this is my testimony...sorry it is so long. I hope it will challenge any here who have questions and doubts...and if you still wonder whether I believe heaven will be denied to one who serves in the military, all I can say is I do not know...this decision belongs to God.

(And for your info we had a son who served in the Guard as 1LT. and three sons who did not serve in the military.)

Blessings,
ginnyrose"

I find it quite fascinating how God arranged events among so many people that enabled us to visit with Bro. & Sis. Mooney. We talked for only 20 minutes (?). They were there for worship service and the meal following and left very soon after eating. I told my DH it was worthwhile going to FL just to hear Bro. Mooney share with us. After hearing this, I knew this story had to be shared with a larger audience.

You know, sometimes it gets a tad bit discouraging when one sees so much apostasy about us, among people we thought were stable in their faith, in their walk with the LORD. Then when you hear how God IS working in the most unusual ways, it does cheer us. This excites me. Glad it cheered you all as well.

ginnyrose

_________________
Sandra Miller

Brothers and Sisters,

I have several questions for all who feel led to answer, please take some time to seek the Lord so we avoid simple opinions wrought out of emotion.

Why are we Christians against abortion? Because it is murder, the taking of a defenseless, unable to defend itself God given human life. This action causes untold gilt and years of not being able to forgive ones self, for some, forgiveness never comes.
We have spent billions of dollars and God only knows how many hours fighting for this horror to be stopped. When one looks at the untold suffering that this horrible crime causes, one wonders why it ever began. Why is it?

Now let me ask this, why do we send our men and women to war for what we say is to defend our freedom? Many defenseless, unable to defend themselves God given human lives, are lost. Many, who have never taken a breath of air, are killed along with their mothers. This action causes untold guilt, years of not being able to forgive ones self and for many forgiveness never comes. Trillions of dollars are spent and countless millions have given their lives to fight for something man in himself cannot attain. When one looks at the untold suffering this horrible crime causes, one wonders why it ever began. Why is it?

Is not the taking of life to make our life more convenient the same?

James 4:1-2
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.


In His Love
pastorfrin