| Poster | Thread | Sellsie
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Joined: 2007/1/29
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| | Re: | | Quote:
RobertW wrote:
Truly if God was going to force the men to do what He wanted then there is no reason to give a warning to the leaders. It is a mute point. It makes the whole dialogue into pretense. They leaders had a decision to make. They could take seriously what Paul said- or not. Many a man has disregarded God's counsel and perished. These men would not have been the first or the last.
I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree with you. What about the story of Jonah? God's purpose was still accomplished even though Jonah first disobeyed God. I don't know the mind of God, but I do know that He cannot lie because Scripture tells us that (Titus 1:2). God told Paul that not one of those sailors would perish, so I personally believe that they could not die, or God would be a liar. |
|  2007/2/2 12:17 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Sellsie's: God told Paul that not one of those sailors would perish, so I personally believe that they could not die, or God would be a liar.
Yes, but God also told Paul that if any leave the ship then they could not be saved. We have to take the entire account as a whole. A [i]text[/i] without a [i]context[/i] is a [i]pretext[/i]. God would not be a liar if they perished unless they died without warning. They were warned of the condition. If they chose to disobey then God is not a liar- the disobedient would have -perished for their decision.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/2/2 12:24 | Profile | JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | The promise made to Paul was conditional, but not in the sense that you say. The promise was not only for the storm, but for the duration of the trip to Rome. We know this because eventually all the men died.
Please look at the promise:
22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.
God promised that no one would die and that only the ship would be destroyed. This happened.
23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.
God had given safety to all that traveled with Paul. This happened and none died.
25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.
The promise was that none of those who sailed with Paul would perish in the storm. The angel told Paul and Paul believed God.
Also, for another example please notice verses 42-44:
42And the soldiers' counsel was to kill the prisoners, lest any of them should swim out, and escape.
43But the centurion, willing to save Paul, kept them from their purpose; and commanded that they which could swim should cast themselves first into the sea, and get to land:
44And the rest, some on boards, and some on broken pieces of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land.
Remember, God had earlier promised Paul that none would die. Now, we have the soldiers making a plan to kill the prisoners. If the soldiers would have killed the prisoners then God's promise would have been void.
But what happened? The centurion saved Paul's life. The centurion did exactly what God wanted him to do. This is another example of God's Sovereign will coexisting with man's free will. Was there any condition in this second instance?
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| | 2007/2/2 12:30 | Profile | JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
All promises are conditional at some level.
What is conditional about Hebrews 13:5 other than it is made to Christians?
"I will never leave you nor forsake you." |
| | 2007/2/2 12:38 | Profile | JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | The frustrating thing about what you are saying is that God makes promises but whether or not they are realized is up to us.
The Bible says in Ephesians 1:11 that God, "works all things according to the counsel of his will"
Also in Isaiah 14:24, "The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand."
Isaiah 46:9-10, "Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."
God's sovereignly brings things about according to His good pleasure. This does not mean that man does not make choices, what it means is that man's choices fulfill God's plans. The two can coexist and Acts 27 demonstrates this fact. |
| | 2007/2/2 12:50 | Profile | Sellsie
Member
Joined: 2007/1/29
Posts: 4
| | Re: | | Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
All promises are conditional at some level.
What is conditional about Hebrews 13:5 other than it is made to Christians?
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."
Amen. If this promise is conditional, then we are in deep trouble. If this promise is conditional, it is no longer God's grace which saves but has now become our works that save. Sorry for going off on a tangent...I felt compelled to respond to this. :-D |
| | 2007/2/2 12:52 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
What is conditional about Hebrews 13:5 other than it is made to Christians?
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."
Hebrews 13:5 was given it's condition earlier:
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38, 39)
This verse suggests that there are some that will 'draw back' unto perdition. This is a picture of a ship that furls its sails when going into battle. The wind is in the sails, but the captain does not like the direction or does not want the battle. Quite a sober warning I think. The drawing back leads to perdition if it is continued in.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/2/2 13:30 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
The frustrating thing about what you are saying is that God makes promises but whether or not they are realized is up to us.
This is the way He has sovereignly chosen to work things out. In His sovereignty He has given man the ability to 'choose'. Man is called to 'choose ye'. That is man's responsibility. God called Israel to be a great nation; but their 'choice' ultimately led them away from what God wanted for them. Jesus wept over Jerusalam and said how long He desired to gather them, but they [i]would not[/i]. That was God's reaction to their choice. This was not God crying over His own decisions- but over a people whom He had given to make their own.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/2/2 13:36 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Amen. If this promise is conditional, then we are in deep trouble.
Not unless we decide to walk away from God (furl the sails).
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/2/2 13:37 | Profile | JaySaved
Member
Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | I am sorry Robert but I respectfully disagree with your statement.
Hebrews 10:38-39 speak of two types of people who profess faith:
- Those who are genuine
- Those who are false
Notice Paul makes the statement, 'But we are not like them'. This signifies that we belong to God and cannot draw back.
This also agrees with 2 Timothy 2:16-19
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."
Once again there are two types: Those who swerve from the truth and those who belong to God. God's firm foundation stands because he keeps those who are His.
This also agrees with 1 John 2:19-20,
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge."
Notice that there were some who were with us, but left us. What does John say about them? He says they left because they were not of us to begin with. Their leaving proved that they did not belong to begin with. Then John says, 'But you have been anointed'.
What you are saying is that God makes the following statement:
"I will never leave you nor forsake you unless you fall away, then I will leave you and forsake you."
If all of God's promises are based upon me, then may God have mercy on my soul because I fail everyday. What assurance and hope would I have? But praise be to God for He holds me and seats me in the Heavenly places with Christ. |
| | 2007/2/2 13:45 | Profile |
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