| Poster | Thread | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Graftedbranc,
Quote:
[u]Condemnation is through Adam[/u] and eternal Life is in Christ. But there is also reward and judgement for deeds done in the body.
This sounds like 'original guilt'. Do you hold to that view? Just trying to clarify.
Quote:
We are not made sinners because of what we do. We sin because of what we are. To sin is our nature. It is in our constitution. We do what we do because of what we are and in Adam we are constituted sinners. Our deeds are just the expression of our fallen sinful humanity.
This is true, yet the reason [u]we[/u] are still guilty is that "no word from God shall be void of power" (Luke 1:37) and what God says, we [i]can[/i] and [i]must[/i] do. We had the nature of Sin, but still yet man could have obeyed what God said do. This comes off almost as Pelagianism, but not really. Man in himself cannot obey any more than a man with a withered arm can "stretch it forth". But when God says, 'stretch forth thine hand' it becomes a matter of just [i]doing[/i] it.
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Robert Wurtz II
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|  2006/6/13 11:16 | Profile | Graftedbranc
Member
Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619
| | Re: | | Brother, It is just the plain revelation of the bible. Through one man sin entered into the world and thrugh sin, death so that death spread to all men.
As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
We inherit two things. We inherit guilt and Adam's fallen sinful nature. And our expression of this nature in sins commited only demonstrates the justice of our inherited guilt.
This is why Paul says in Galatians that the Law was given. Not that we might obey it and be justified by it, but rather that through it sin might be shown to be utterly sinful.
That is, the law was given to show us our condition and to show us our inability to obey it so that we might be justified through faith in Christ.
The Law came in to expose us. To show us God's rightousness and to show how we fall short. That we might despair of ourselves, apply to God and be justified through faith in Christ who alone is rightousness.
Nothing of the old creation is acceptable to God. Nothing of Adam can meet God's rightous requirements. God's way is the way of the New Creation. Christ Terminated the old creaiton in Himself on the Cross. And in His resurrection brought into being the New Creation of which we are partakers when we believe into Christ.
The Old Man was crucified with Christ. Christ is the end of Adam and in resurrection as the Second Man, we who are in HIm are acceptable to God, justified, redeemed, regenerated and being transformed into His image.
In christ we also inherit two things. IN Him we are justified before God. And also in Him we recieve His Life through regeneration. And this Life expresses itself in holiness and rightousness.
Just as we have Adam's guilt and Adam's nature, so also we have Christ's rightousness and Christ's nature imparted into us through the New Birth.
Graftedbranch
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| | 2006/6/13 12:47 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | I wish to make an answer by this recent entry from AW. Tozer here on Sermonindex. It is from a chapter, "Preaching that Hinders Revival".
Tozer:
Another doctrinal hindrance is the teaching that men are so weak by nature that they are unable to keep the law of God. Our moral helplessness is hammered into us in sermon and song until we wilt under it and give up in despair. And on top of this we are told that we must accept Jesus in order that we may be saved from the wrath of the broken law! [u]No matter what the intellect may say, the human heart can never accept the idea that we are to be held responsible for breaking a law that we cannot keep.[/u] Would a father lay upon the back of his three year-old son a sack of grain weighing five-hundred pounds and then beat the child because he could not carry it? Either men can or they cannot please God. If they cannot, they are not morally responsible, and have nothing to fear. If they can, and will not, then they are guilty, and as guilty sinners they will be sent to hell at last. The latter is undoubtedly the fact. If the Bible is allowed to speak for itself it will teach loudly the doctrine of man's personal responsibility for sins committed.
Men sin because they want to sin. God's quarrel with men is that
they will not do even that part of the will of God which they
understand and could do if they would. From Paul's testimony in the seventh chapter of Romans some teachers have drawn the doctrine of moral inability. But however Paul's inner struggle may be interpreted, it is contrary to the whole known truth to believe that he had been a consistent law-breaker and violator of the Ten Commandments. He specifically testified that he had lived in all good conscience before God, which to a Jew could only mean that he had observed the legal requirements of the law. Paul's cry in Romans is not after power to fulfill the simple morality of the Ten Commandments, but after inward holiness which the law could not impart.
It is time we get straightened out in our thinking about the law. The weakness of the law was three-fold: (1) It could not cancel past sins - that is, it could not justify; (2) it could not make dead men live - that is, it could not regenerate; (3)it could not make bad hearts good - that is, it could not sanctify. To teach that the
insufficiency of the law lay in man's moral inability to meet its
simple demands on human behaviour is to err most radically. If the law could not be kept, God is in the position of laying upon
mankind an impossible moral burden and then punishing them for failure to do the impossible. I will believe anything I find in the Bible, but I do not feel under obligation to believe a teaching which is obviously a mistaken inference and one, furthermore, which both contradicts the Scriptures and outrages human reason.
The Bible everywhere takes for granted Israel's ability to obey the law. Condemnation fell because Israel, having that ability, refused to obey. They sinned not out of amiable weakness, but out of deliberate rebellion against the will of God. That is the inner nature of sin always, willful refusal to obey God. [u]But still men go on trying to get conviction upon sinners by telling them they sinned because they could not help it.[/u]
The vogue of excusing sin, of seeking theological justification for it instead of treating it as an affront to God, is having its terrible effect among us. Deep searching of heart and a resolute turning from evil will go far to bring back power to the Church of Christ. Tender, tear-stained preaching on this subject must be heard again before revival can come.
The contradictions observed in the teachings which we have
examined here are another cause of weakness. Christians do not, as a rule, enjoy great power until they begin to think straight. Whether or not the Methodists were right on every point they held is an open question; but their leaders had thought things out so clearly that they were not leading the people around in circles. As far as they could see there were no contradictions in their philosophy of faith, and this was a source of real strength to them.
The same was true in the Finney revivals. God used Finney to get
people thinking straight about religion. He may not have been
correct in all his conclusions, but he did remove the doctrinal
stalemates and start the people moving toward God. He placed
before his hearers a moral either/or, so they could always know
just where they stood. The inner confusion caused by hidden
contradictions was absent from his preaching. We could use
another Finney today.
"Paths to Power" - by A. W. Tozer, CHAPTER 5, page 40
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2006/6/13 13:22 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | It all boils down to this: there is no salvation outside of discipleship.
Lavish formulas and sayings have been created to try to say otherwise, but, this is the essence of the gospel through and through. Anything that says contrary is a false gospel.
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Jimmy H
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| | 2006/6/13 15:30 | Profile |
| | Re: The call | | Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
It all boils down to this: there is no salvation outside of discipleship.
Lavish formulas and sayings have been created to try to say otherwise, but, this is the essence of the gospel through and through. Anything that says contrary is a false gospel.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Stever responds:
What about the thief on the cross? What about the man that dies on his death bed, two seconds after he accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
God knows and understands and sees our hearts. He is the one that makes the decision. He is the one that will raise us up on the last day.
Anytime we add anything extra, we are going into an area that is not clear. What is clear is this:
1. John 6:28-29
"28. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
2. Romans 10:9-13
" 9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
xxxxxxxxxxxx
As far as "fruit inspection" is concerned, I do agree that we should make that call. However, God is the one that knows the heart. God is the one that can accurately judge others. We still, even now, look through the glass darkly.
I think I will continue to witness to the lost, and lay hands on and pray for the sick, and give, and pray, and fast and let God be the one to sort it out on who really is saved and who isn't.
God bless,
Stever :-D
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| | 2006/6/13 22:30 | | Compton
Member
Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | Quote:
Our moral helplessness is hammered into us in sermon and song until we wilt under it and give up in despair.
Hey, I resemble that remark!
Quote:
Paul's cry in Romans is not after power to fulfill the simple morality of the Ten Commandments, but after inward holiness which the law could not impart.
Lord, let this be our cry as well!
MC
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Mike Compton
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| | 2006/6/13 22:43 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | There is no salvation outside of Christ, discipleship comes after The birth of Christ in the Believer. Then we are a true disciple of Christ.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2006/6/14 3:29 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Condemnation is through Adam and eternal Life is in Christ. But there is also reward and judgement for deeds done in the body.
What do you see the sentence/condemnation as being? This is my question. Many conclude that it means 'hell', does the book say so? I have no problem with the doctrine of 'congenital sin' but my question is what is the nature of the 'condemnation'?
Quote:
Just as we have Adam's guilt and Adam's nature, so also we have Christ's rightousness and Christ's nature imparted into us through the New Birth.
If I have Adam's 'guilt', of what am I guilty? The legal language in this country is 'guilty as charged' and this is from the Roman concept of law. Of what does God charge me in Adam's disobedience? Guilt is blame-worthiness; of what does God hold me responsible in Adam's guilt?
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2006/6/14 4:48 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
Member
Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
philologos wrote:
What do you see the sentence/condemnation as being? This is my question. Many conclude that it means 'hell', does the book say so? I have no problem with the doctrine of 'congenital sin' but my question is what is the nature of the 'condemnation'?
Could it be that the "condemnation" (ie, sentance) for for Adam's sin, is that we are "given over" to our participation in Adam's sin, thereby justifying the ultimate condemnation to hell, because we have contributed to the problem, rather than avoided it, by trusting Christ? (pant-pant...long sentance)
Effectively Adam's condemnation was to have he and his descendants sold into slavery to their sin nature (notice the cross-over from "judicial terminology" to "slave market terminology" - and yes, I have been listening to your RORA2003 series :-P Pedantics of the world unite against the "Humpty invasion"). I can't think of a specific reference off hand, but I seem to remember their being cases in Leviticus where slaves were given opportunity to become bond slaves, because the children they had while serving out their term of slavery belonged to their master. Therefore the only way to keep their family was to sign their life over to the master.
If my memory serves me well in this matter, then this could be seem as an illustration of our slavery to the "sin nature" (as NIV puts it) and then Romans 8:1 could be a crossover of the slave/judicial terminology, where the death of the old master (ie, the Law) allows the opportunity for the new master (ie, Christ) to take ownership, thereby allowing a disolution of the "bondslave" status, that came about by us desiring to retain the children produced while under the old master (ie, sin - drawing of the matrimonial terminology, used in Rom 6).
As Reidhead would put it, sinners sin because they love their sin. What mother wouldn't love her children, and the Proverb compares God's faithfulness with this "mother's love". Perhaps walking "according to the Spirit" as opposed to the "flesh" could be drawing on this maternal illustration that James raises (ie, temptation=enticement, sin=birth, death=maturity), where "the flesh" is the "adulterous suitor"? It is interesting that Paul uses the words "no condemnation" in this verse, and perhaps the charge is one of "spiritual adultery" which produced the offspring of sin.
Anyway, that's my observation. By the way, welcome back Ron:-).
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/6/14 10:03 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | In Adam we are in condemnation unto death, because of sin. Sin as of the same as Adam. Not obeying God. Because of disobedience, Judgment, because of judgment, condemnation.
IN Christ, no condemnation, because Judgment was put on Christ. Sin is still available, but judgment unto death is taken away, therefore; no condemnation in Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:45-48 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
Where we are in Spirit and Soul already seated in the heavenlies, with Christ Jesus which is now our Life. Not the old man, but the New Man in Christ Jesus. How?
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Making no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus, Birthed, Born Again son's of God.
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2006/6/14 13:28 | Profile |
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