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Ed Raby

I think some balance is definitely needed with the tongues issue. I came from a non-Pentecostal background and stumbled into the experience when I was a young Christian in college. When I first spoke in tongues (while praying for a friend of mine), I can honestly say it was the last thing on my mind. At that point I didn't want to speak in tongues.

With regard to people who speak in tongues and live unsanctified lives, there may be three explanations. The most obvious one is that the person is faking it. The less obvious one, as a friend of mine pointed out, is that the gifts of God are without repentance. You could have a gift--tongues, musician, writer, organizational skills, whatever--and still have that gift after turning your back on God, or at least no longer living for Him. We have countless examples of such.

The third is that sometimes people are at different places in their walk with the Lord. In the New Testament, we see some disciples who spoke in tongues post-Pentecost who were still very imperfect people. I've known believers and leaders who have numerous failures and shortcomings who still speak in tongues. This includes people who are undisciplined in their lives or focus too much on tongues to the exclusion of everything else. I've gone through these phases as have many of us. I don't write off people's speaking in tongues as fake because of those shortcomings. Of course, I'm not referring to people who are walking in willful, habitual sin. In that case the first two explanations would apply.

I don't flaunt my ability to speak in tongues. I actually prefer to do it privately. But it has definitely brought a new dimension to my prayer and worship and I can't imagine not having that.

I believe that there is enough Biblical evidence of the validity and importance of tongues. In the article that began this thread, it is lamentable that the well-meaning older lady was more concerned with the manifestation than anything else. I know many Christians who are more mature, devoted and effective than I am who do not speak in tongues and I thank God for them. I don't believe that tongues is the only manifestation for being filled with the Spirit. Changed hearts are more miraculous than anything else to me. But I also find it equally lamentable that so many would try to explain away tongues or downplay its importance.

My $2.50. Blessings to all...
marc

Way back in the mid 1960's my mother had remarried, we had just moved into a new house and this new family wanted to start out right by attending church. All of us were very UNCHURCHED. We got up put on our ill fitting suits, because this was a new experience for us. We of course ran late about 20 mins or so. Down the street we lived on was a classic Church with sweeping steps, a large brick building with a classic white steeple, four sets of double doors and a large parking lot that was full. We walked up the steps, the doors were closed but unlocked, my new dad opened the outer doors and we heard noises inside we thought was singing. When we opened the inner doors The fellowship (the place was packed) was in a rapturous Spiritual experience that EVERYONE but us was shouting in tongues. It was thunderous and extremely upsetting to my dear mother who was Presbyterian , and my New dad who was Catholic. All I remember is (I was 12) they grabbed us and ran out of that place like a bat out of hell with his wings on fire. I don't think my mother ever attended church after that and I missed the 1970's revival with Chuck Smith and crew because I thought Christians were crazy. The point I am making is this Paul warns us in Corinthians about the use of tongues and how it can effect the unchurched or baby Christians. Now I pray in tongues, I have not spoken in a unknown language, I really wish He would give me Spanish but He told me not to be lazy and just study it.
I share this story so that some of you might learn that the devil can use tongues against some who do not understand and to build walls between brothers who otherwise could have fellowship.

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David Michael Paul

Groh Forg & Sir Edward

Why do I get the feeling that I am speaking to children who lack understanding or better yet who can't read?

I sit here typing all my heart out on this forum and I get these silly reponses, "You lost me here". How did you get lost reading a simple post?

We think of that word salvation to only mean Christ coming into the life of the believer.

Doesn't anyone understand that when a cow falls into a hole you take some rope and pull it out, that cow received salvation, did he not? Can we agree on that?

If you and I fall into a hole that the enemy has sat for us because we are walking in our own arrogance, and then Christ comes with His grace and pulls us out, are we not being saved? Did not salvation come to us this day?

David said, "My foot slippeth but thy grace held me up", was he not saved from falling?

There are Christians who fall every day and they get back up, are they not being saved?

When a man and his wife fight and they are bitter towards one another, until the man softens and he asks for forgivness and reconcilation is made, was thier marriage saved? Certainly it was, it could've been worse, they might have stayed bitter and then gotten a divorce.

Now I hope to God that you can now understand what I mean by being saved daily or weekly or monthly or however many times you fall or make a mistake.

LS

There were some posts that grabbed my attention that I would like to hear some more Biblical backing or explanation for:

LS: "There are Christians who fall every day and they get back up, are they not being saved?"

I would say that we are not saved daily. We will be saved from wrath...

Rom 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

...and we are saved from wrath already by His grace through our faith.

Rom 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"

1 Cor 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

The reason I would dispute this is that Christ does not have to continually and daily save us from the penalty of sin. But rather He does continually and daily offer us the power over sin, by offering His Spirit. Victory over the power of sin is sanctification through the Holy Ghost. Victory over the penalty of sin is justification, and salvation, through his blood.

The 7th chapter of Hebrew was written to explain this matter:

Heb 7:25-27 "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."

"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;"

"Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself."

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JIL: "I belive that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Every single account in the book of Acts that has to do with the baptism in the Spirit is accompanied with speaking in tongues and prophesying."

LGB: JIL, you don't seem arrogant from your posts or anything, I would just like to dispute you on this point. Barring the Biblical accounts outside of the book of Acts of someone being Holy Ghost filled (Jesus, John Baptist, etc) I would like to post some Acts accounts where they did not speak in tongues, though they were initially filled:

Acts:

4:31 "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

9:17,20: "And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."

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JIL: "Charles G. Finney was very powerfully baptized in the Holy Spirit and did speak in tongues"

John R Rice:
from 'How Great Soul Winners Were Filled with The Spirit':

p. 27, "Moody, Torrey, Chapman, Sunday, Finney, Spurgeon...1) All of them believed that the fullness of the Holy Spirit as experienced by Christians in the book of Acts is for us today!"

p, 28: "4) How many of these soul winners, the greatest of these twenty centuries, believed that speaking in tongues was the necessary sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Not a one of them! None of them "spoke in tongues" and none of them preached that speaking in tongues was necessary or desirable as a sign of the fullness of the Holy Spirit!"

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Hal Bachman

You people are driving me crazy.

How do I go about unregistering?

The Father called me out of cess pool of filth, and transferred me into the kindom of His dear Son. I have sweet fellowship with those who are so like minded.

But on this site it's impossible to do that, nit pickers, straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

True love will overlook my short comings and will offer me hope not tear down, and constantly be at odds. I find that people want the negative more than the positive. It's so much fun to tear down than it is to build up.

Jesus added the holy Spirit to our lives that He may take away the old dross that is in our lives, the old leaven.

Why condemn a Catholic of thier belief's, why not add to their faith, get them to the place where they accept Christ into thier heart.

"Mary was there in the upper room and she received the holy Spirit, would you like to receive what she received?" What kind of an answer will you get? most likely a yes, and the holy Spirit will lead and guide them into all truth.

Tearing down one's belief is not the answer, add to what they already got.

People spend days studing other peoples religions, what a waste of time, when they could be on their face before God asking the LORD to give them a word to change that heart.

Isn't that what we are all about? To reveal Christ in us to a hurting world that is lost and dying?

Or is the above just waiting to be picked apart by a group of negative hungry christians looking to tear down what I just typed?

If you can't understand a word that I have shared, please DO NOT respond, I don't want to hear from you, your frustrating my experince on this great site.

Thank you

LS :cry:

LS,

Many of us have for quite some time, agreed to disagree about many things. That is the reason we post, to learn and sharpen swords. I apologize if I am coming off as negative.

Remember that Whitefield and Wesley had there disputes, but thought very highly of one another.

George Whitefield to John Wesley: "No, dear Sir, you mistake."

Wesley spoke at Whitefield’s funeral. When he was asked, “Dear Mr. Wesley, do you expect to see dear Mr. Whitefield in heaven?” John replied, “No, madam.” But then he furthered, “Do not misunderstand me, madam; George Whitefield was so bright a star in the firmament of God's glory, and will stand so near the throne, that one like me, who am less than the least, will never catch a glimpse of him.”

I expect to have my thoughts corrected if I am in error. That is how I learn. Perhaps I should have welcomed you first. I am not trying to drive you away, but would rather you be strengthened in the Word and in doctrine by defending your position. Please don't leave because of my comments.

I have been told to lighten up more than once. I'm glad you're here. I hope we can discuss things in hopes that the truth will be reached in love.

2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

MODERATOR: Let me know if I have been out of line.

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Hal Bachman

Wow such a long thread... I have only read the first page so far.

Most of the time, I see tongues as a non-issue.
I have never spoken in tongues, and have never heard anyone speak in tongues.

My friends grandfather who was a missionary said he has heard people 'talking in tongues' which apparently was actually blasphemy or jibberish in their native tongue. (Or something similiar to that...)

I personally believe that it has been taken out of its original context by many. I believe the gift of tongues isn't valid if people can't 100% accurately interpret what the person speaking tongues is saying.

I can see people dividing up into Pro-Tongues and Non-Tongues sides, but I don't think that is necessary.

You do NOT have to speak in tongues to be a Christian, anyone that says other wise is wrong.
You receive the Holy Spirit when you become a Christian. You are however given spiritual gifts... I am still discovering mine...

I do not know whether tongues is genuinely active in the church today - it might very well be...

Just my 2cents

Peace be with you
God Bless
Michael

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Michael Hancock