“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
Matthew 24:15-17


“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
Luke 21:20-21
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Now we have to do a little algebra.

In algebra, if a=b and b=c, then a=c.

In Matthew the “abomination of desolation” (a) is what signals it’s time to take flight (b).

In Luke, “Jerusalem surrounded by armies” (c) is the signal to take flight (b)

Therefore, a=c. In other words, Jerusalem surrounded by the pagan gentile Roman army IS the abomination of desolation.

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Todd

"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

Docs, Jesus said that TO Jews ABOUT Jews in Judea. It already happened in 70 A.D.

However, I believe much worse is coming in fulfillment of later verses in Matthew 24 & 25, Revelation, etc.

Some Bible scholars think the (earthly) church is no longer referred to after chapter 4 of Revelation, that the remaining chapters are about the Jews on earth during the tribulation, and whether they come to know their Messiah, or not.

Many of the preachers featured on this site (B. H. Clendennen, David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill, etc.) held to a pre-trib view of the Rapture, whereas others (Zac Poonen) hold to a post-trib view.

Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you are interested.

/"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

Docs, Jesus said that TO Jews ABOUT Jews in Judea. It already happened in 70 A.D./

Are there Jews in Judea today?

I believe Christ in His speaking to those of that generation was following the almost classic mode in which many of the prophets spoke. Meaning, what the prophet spoke would come to pass in the immediate life of the prophet or soon thereafter only to later be completely and exhaustively fulfilled in the distant eschatological future. It's termed by scholars and theologians as near/far fulfillment. Such luminaries as John Calvin, George Eldon Ladd and others endorsed this view of near/far fulfillment or sensus pleior as it is sometimes referred to. So Jesus, in the classic mode of prophetic utterance employed by many of the prophets, could have been speaking to his generation while speaking also into a generation the eschatological future. Certainly there are Jews in Judea today that run the high risk of eventually being surrounded by hostile Gentile armies. Then the prophecies of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse will have reached a exhaustive fulfillment in the eschatological future.

/Some Bible scholars think the (earthly) church is no longer referred to after chapter 4 of Revelation, that the remaining chapters are about the Jews on earth during the tribulation, and whether they come to know their Messiah, or not./

I don't deny that but it can also be pointed out that many scholars don't believe that. Also, many average lay people who promote the view of a pre-trib rapture don't realize that this view as promoted by its more prominent and famous adherents also promote the view that Jews or anyone saved during the tribulation are not part of the church. I constantly wonder how anyone saved during the tribulation by faith in Christ and His cleansing blood are not part of the church. This view, widely promoted and accepted, that tribulation saints are not to be part of the church, was never heard of in the slightest form before the 1830s.

If we all are to be raptured and changed and put on immortality at the last trumptet (I Cor 15:51-52) how can there be a last trumpet at a pre-trib rapture when the church is raptured and puts on immortality and then seven years or so later there be another last trumpet when those who perished during the tribulation are raised and raptured and put on immortality? How many "last" trumpets can there be? Does last according to Paul really mean last? The last trumpet I see anywhere is referred to in Matt 24:31 at the second coming of Jesus. How could there have been a last trumpet seven years before at a pre-trib rapture when there was still another trumpet to occur seven years later? The last trumpet of Matthew 24:31 occurs AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days as seen in Matthew 24:29. So I maintain that the entire church of the ages, living and dead, will be raised and raptured and put on immortality at the last trumpet that occurs AFTER the tribulation of those days and at the second coming of Christ. None of this was even a matter of debate before the very late arrival of pre-tribulationism that began as recently in church history as the 1830s.

/Many of the preachers featured on this site (B. H. Clendennen, David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill, etc.) held to a pre-trib view of the Rapture, whereas others (Zac Poonen) hold to a post-trib view./

I admit I do not know what many of these men believe but I would be of a post-trib view as Zac Poonen is. The timing of the last trumpet (after the tribulation of those days)and what occurs at the last trumpet(all believers living and dead putting on immortality) is in my opinion a great gift of clarity for a church wanting to understand and be properly prepared.

Thank you and blessings.

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David Winter

David (Docs), the apostle Paul wrote to the church of Thessalonica, "And we who are alive & remain will be caught up together to meet Him in the air." Paul allowed that the Rapture could happen in his lifetime. It is the blessed hope. We are to purify ourselves with this hope.

Saints, whether Jew or Gentile, during the Tribulation are still saints.

A personal opinion & nothing more: we may be quite far off yet from the Tribulation. Where is the USA in Revelation? Outside of Israel, Europe. Africa (Egypt in particular),& Asia, only the isles warrant a brief mention. It may be that the USA has to economically fall & no longer be a superpower, but a Third World Nation before these things take place. China & Japan already purchased 44% of the US national debt. Some think the Great City that the merchants of the earth bewail is NYC or the contiguous United States. Others feel it is "mother Rome" or the Vatican (as the Reformers did). We'll see, if not here, then hereafter.

I think almost all of Rev is talking about the papacy and world systems in general.

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Todd

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Read Chapter 5 as most people stop at Chapter 4

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

What is the Day of the Lord

Isaiah 13:9-10

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.
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A personal opinion & nothing more: we may be quite far off yet from the Tribulation. Where is the USA in Revelation? Outside of Israel, Europe. Africa (Egypt in particular),& Asia, only the isles warrant a brief mention. It may be that the USA has to economically fall & no longer be a superpower, but a Third World Nation before these things take place. China & Japan already purchased 44% of the US national debt. Some think the Great City that the merchants of the earth bewail is NYC or the contiguous United States. Others feel it is "mother Rome" or the Vatican (as the Reformers did). We'll see, if not here, then hereafter.
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Scripturial evidence please as I wanted to talk about the Great Tribulation, the Pre Trib Rapture is a side question as I do not believe in it and I think it is a red herring

_________________
Dominic Shiells

Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you are interested.

/"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

Docs, Jesus said that TO Jews ABOUT Jews in Judea. It already happened in 70 A.D./

Are there Jews in Judea today?

I believe Christ in His speaking to those of that generation was following the almost classic mode in which many of the prophets spoke. Meaning, what the prophet spoke would come to pass in the immediate life of the prophet or soon thereafter only to later be completely and exhaustively fulfilled in the distant eschatological future. It's termed by scholars and theologians as near/far fulfillment. Such luminaries as John Calvin, George Eldon Ladd and others endorsed this view of near/far fulfillment or sensus pleior as it is sometimes referred to. So Jesus, in the classic mode of prophetic utterance employed by many of the prophets, could have been speaking to his generation while speaking also into a generation the eschatological future. Certainly there are Jews in Judea today that run the high risk of eventually being surrounded by hostile Gentile armies. Then the prophecies of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse will have reached a exhaustive fulfillment in the eschatological future.
---------------------------------------

There are problems with this aswell with the Preterist or the Historist question ! I know it held among the reformed !
I was going to

But that the Church is one, the Holy Spirit declares in the Song of Songs, saying, in the person of Christ, “My dove, my undefiled, is one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her.” Concerning which also He says again, “A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring sealed up, a well of living water.” But if the spouse of Christ, which is the Church, is a garden enclosed; a thing that is closed up cannot lie open to strangers and profane persons. And if it is a fountain sealed, he who, being placed without has no access to the spring, can neither drink thence nor be sealed. And the well also of living water, if it is one and the same within, he who is placed without cannot be quickened and sanctified from that water of which it is only granted to those who are within to make any use, or to drink. Peter also, showing this, set forth that the Church is one, and that only they who are in the Church can be baptized; and said, “In the ark of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water; the like figure where-unto even baptism shall save you;” proving and attesting that the one ark of Noah was a type of the one Church. If, then, in that baptism of the world thus expiated and purified, he who was not in the ark of Noah could be saved by water, he who is not in the Church to which alone

The Church Fathers. The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words (Kindle Locations 100026-100035). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

This is from Ireninius stating that the Tribulation is to purify the church ! I hate the view that God would not send his bride through wrath!

I know I am arguing against pre trib rapture! With the preterist and hisorist view , How do you deal with the fact that when jesus returns he will destroy the antichrist and the antichrist is around during the time of the Tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I class myself as a Historic Premillenist and Post Trib

The reason I brought this subject up, is we are so used to money, how are we going to survive when we cant buy anything, persecution is widespread around the world?
How many christian ministries ask for Donations for ministry what happens when that does not happen and you cant get sermons on line !
When you cannot eat or drink or put through torture!

The distinction to be made between the righteous and the wicked. The future apostasy in the time of Antichrist, and the end of the world 1. Inasmuch, then, as in this world (aioni) some persons betake themselves to the light, and by faith unite themselves with God, but others shun the light, and separate themselves from God, the Word of God comes preparing a fit habitation for both. For those indeed who are in the light, that they may derive enjoyment from it, and from the good things contained in it; but for those in darkness, that they may partake in its calamities. And on this account He says, that those upon the right hand are called into the kingdom of heaven, but that those on the left He will send into eternal fire for they have deprived themselves of all good. 2. And for this reason the apostle says: “Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness.” For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly “be cast into the lake of fire:” [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, “that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness;” whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse: “And the beast which I had seen was like unto a leopard, and his feet as of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon conferred his own power upon him, and his throne, and great might. And one of his heads was as it were slain unto death; and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave power to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto this beast, and who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy and power was given to him during forty and two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth worshipped him, [every one] whose name was not written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any one have ears, let him hear. If any one shall lead into captivity, he shall go into captivity. If any shall slay with the sword, he must be slain with the sword. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.” After this he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he also terms a false prophet: “He spake as a dragon, and exercised all the power of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the earth astray.” Let no one imagine that he performs these wonders by divine power, but by the working of magic. And we must not be surprised if, since the demons and apostate spirits are at his service, he through their means performs wonders, by which he leads the inhabitants of the earth astray. John says further: “And he shall order an image of the beast to be made, and he shall give breath to the image, so that the image shall speak; and he shall cause those to be slain who will not adore it.” He says also: “And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the right hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,” that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.

The Church Fathers. The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words (Kindle Locations 18931-18945). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

The Church Fathers. The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words (Kindle Locations 18916-18931). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

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Dominic Shiells

I've heard the claim that no one believed in a pre-trib rapture before 1830. But consider these quotes from centuries earlier:

http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

http://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-origin-of-the-concept-of-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/

Furthermore, Jude says the Lord will return with His saints to execute judgment upon the ungodly. That's the raptured bride coming back with Christ to rescue Israel at the end of the Tribulation.

Enoch was raptured. Elijah was raptured. Our Lord Himself ascended 40 days after His resurrection. The two witnesses are killed, resurrected, & raptured to heaven. The 144,000 are raptured. Bible scholar John G. Hall says there are SEVEN raptures mentioned in the Scriptures.

Prototypes of the Rapture: Noah & his family were spared in the ark while the world was judged. The Hebrew word for the ark being covered with pitch & the Lord Himself sealing them in is the same as the one rendered as "atonement" elsewhere. Lot & his daughters were taken out of Sodom & Gomorrah by angels before God rained judgment upon those cities. The Israelites were brought out of Egypt & the Lord made a way of escape that pharaoh's armies couldn't enter without perishing.

"Watch ye therefore, & pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, & to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36

Try and find these quotes from an actual book as I am actually quoting from them as they selective quote early church fathers without reading the context like with irenaus who I quoted

Why would the early church fathers who are going through persecution ever actually as they do not stray away from it calling it a purifying of the church

You still have not dealt with the passages as in Thessalonians it specifically says when the rapture , resurrection will have which will be the day of the lord in 1 Thessalonians 5 , when it says the day of the lord comes as a thief in the night

To be there is no biblical grounding for the rapture

As you cannot use types or allegory to justify a doctrine.

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Dominic Shiells

Here is a fine article on pre- or post-trib Rapture by Dave Hunt of the Berean Call:

https://www.thebereancall.org/content/pre-or-post-trib-rapture