"If you are a godly father, you will have a concern for your children’s marriages. If you as a young man are fortunate enough to have a godly father, I would say that you should take his advice very seriously. If such a godly father says “No”, to the one you want to marry, wait. God may be testing you there. Your father’s “No” may only be for a time. After God sees that you are willing to respect your godly father’s advice, He will give you the partner He has chosen."

This passage seems problematic to me. One man's Godly father could be another man's despot. In certain conservative circles the need for control can go way beyond any calling from God. Each saint must decide between himself and God whom he should marry. Godly advice is welcome and should be considered, but a " no," cannot be justified by Scripture when it comes to marriage.

I realize that Zac comes from a culture very different from the west in regard to marriage. For most Indians, say from the business class, a marriage to an untouchable would be unthinkable because of the caste system. In Britain the class system permeates through every aspect of life including Christendom, I can only imagine that it is way worse in India where the caste system is even more entrenched in the phyche of the people. There is no class system or caste system in the Body of Christ. If two people are of age, the decision must be theirs, not their parents............bro Frank

Hmmmm.
All I can say is that I have never met anyone who went against the wishes of their parents in marriage and it turned out well for them in the long run.

One of the last physical duties a parent does for a child is to give them away in marriage. There's a reason for the Lord commanding, 'Honor your father and your mother, that it may be well with you'...and the Lord Jesus, by the mouth of brother Paul repeated it in the New Testament. I simply can't see how going against one's parents' wishes in a marriage partner is honoring to them.

Allow me to share a brother's testimony. He lives in this nation.

Both he and his lovely wife are of Indian heritage but from different castes. This is how the Lord worked the whole thing out.

His wife is a Brahmin, the highest caste. He is not only from the caste beneath but also younger! When he told his Christian parents about his choice of a partner, fearing the drama that would ensue from such a venture, they adamantly refused. He didn't argue with them, he simply took the matter to God and waited. His parents prayed and later called him to say he could go ahead with her. Who knows how the Lord changed their minds?

The sister on the other hand had staunch Hinduist parents. They travel to India to their Hindu temple and inquire from the pagan priest about their daughter. The priest said, 'By the time you return home, your daughter will tell you she has found a man she wants to marry. He is not from your caste and practices another religion.

When they express horror, he cautions them, 'They cannot be separated by any living being for the thing is decided from another realm. The best you can do is to simply agree with her decision and be happy!'

The rest is history. Their home is the sort of place you visit and never want to leave because of the sweet atmosphere of peace there. Her Hinduist parents are honored and welcomed there. It's amazing.

The moral of the testimony is that when a person sincerely seeks to honor the Lord in all things, He will work it out, even if He needs to speak through a pagan priest halfway across the world.

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Tolu

Appolos, I kind of agree and disagree with you.

First the point made by Zac Poonen is very clear to me. If you have a Godly parent then listen to their advice. If they say 'NO' to your partner of choice, even after you found it is God's will, still be patient. If it is truly God's will then what God is about to unite, no man can separate. Even a Godly father. God will make him say YES.

Discernment develops with age, though it is a work of Spirit. The longer a person walks with God's spirit, the greater will be his discernment. Hebrews 5:14- But solid food is for the mature, who because of PRACTICE have their senses trained to DISCERN good and evil.

A spiritually mature has his senses of discernment trained by practice. He can sense better. So it is always good to heed to the decision of Godly parents.

But Godly parents also make mistakes. You are exactly right about caste system. In India even in Godly churches, elders look for same caste and language to get their children married. I have seen Godly people who have said NO to their children's desire based on caste and language. Caste system is so deeply rooted in India even among Christians who proclaim some of the greatest truths.

I have come from Hinduism, so I can clearly see the evil of Caste system and how even God fearing people are blinded by this system. I do not even know the caste of my wife with whom I have been living for 6 years. Surely she should be lower caste than mine, because I come from the highest possible caste according to Hindu belief.

My father-in-law is also an elder in Zac's Church. I have very high respect for him (there are also few like him whom I respect). He had only 2 conditions for his daughter's wedding. 1- The Boy should be born again, 2- My daughter should find that he is God's will. He made me speak to other elders to discern whether I am truly born again, once he had that confidence, he decided to get us married. He had no concerns about caste or opposition from my parents who belong to higher caste. If he found that I was not born again, he won't have agreed to my marriage.

Going by Indian tradition of caste system, there are multiple reasons for my father-in-law to reject me, but he cared only about God's will not about Man's. Sadly I have seen very very few Godly men like that. When it comes to their own children's marriage, they will apply caste and all traditions!

I am not judging anyone here, the light that I have in the area of Caste system, many do not have. It is not a subject that will make me not fellowship with another believer. I have never looked down on any believer just because they do not have light in the area of caste system.

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Sreeram

How far do we take the honoring of parents under the New Covenant? How far do we consider their wishes in the case of marriage? I speak of marriage between Spirit-filled, Christ Centered believers. And I should specify between a man and a woman.

I grew up in the south. I grew up in Louisiana which to this day is still racially bigoted. I speak of relations between white and black. There have been occasions where Christians of adult age have fallen in love. These are believers from different races. One would be white and the other would be black. But because of the racial bigotry the parents have objected against these marriages and have insisted that they marry in their own race. Oftentimes the marriage has resulted in turmoil and sometimes divorce. Oftentimes those who are counselled to marry in their own race have been unhappy. That is the so-called Godly counsel has been given to marry in one's oen race.

So I ask the question if God has truly lead two people together to marry. And in the context of my post one is white and the other is black. And these two people are Spirit filled and love the Lord. But then the parents object and say you must honor me and not marry this person of a different race. I ask again. How far do we take the honoring of parents under the New Covenant regarding marriage?

As in the case in which I write about. Often time the wishes and counsel of the parents may be based on their own racial bigotry and prejudice. When for sure God is seeking to do a new thing by bringing both a white person and a black person together in holy matrimony. That one's identity in Christ is not recognized by the color of their skin but by the content of Jesus in your heart. But then I may be at the minority view in this forum.

Bro Blaine

Brethren,

I believe one way to look at this is how we look at ourselves in relation to the Body of Christ. If we desire to control by our flesh and turn it into a virtue, then we shall desire to dictate to others how they then should live.

Marriage itself is a spiritual reality and symbolizes our obedience to God and not to man. Are we willing to follow the leading of God through his Holy Spirit or shall we merely be followers of men?

Sree writes...........

"But Godly parents also make mistakes. You are exactly right about caste system. In India even in Godly churches, elders look for same caste and language to get their children married. I have seen Godly people who have said NO to their children's desire based on caste and language. Caste system is so deeply rooted in India even among Christians who proclaim some of the greatest truths."

This has been my experience among many Indians, they are awash in their culture and the triumph of the world over the church is to see the world and its cultures rule in the church. The Body of Christ transcends the cultures of the world and is a mighty witness to the world.

This has also been my experience having been born and raised in Britain. Otheriwise Godly parents being horrified if their daughter announces a desire to marry one from a different economic background. Just so you know Sree, the class system in Britain is equally as entrenched as it is India.

This has also been my experience living in America. Otherwise Godly parents being distraught about their "child," desiring to marry one from another race.

This has also been my experience with "conservative Christian groups," in America who have a suffocating desire to control every aspect of their adult children's life because they have lived a life of control. It has nothing to do with God and everything to do with an unholy desire to control. The end results is often groups like the church of Wells who come out of a " conservative," background and who were celebrated for a long time and promoted by those of a " conservative," nature until that very controlling spirit turned on them.

Gen 2:24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 

One of the most difficult aspects of raising children is the aspect of letting go. If you have no children or young children then you really cannot comment at this point :) You have to actually experience it to understand what you are talking about. Letting go and giving your adult children into the hand of God is an act of spiritual maturity. The spiritually weak and immature will desperately try and hang onto control and it really, in many cases, simply comes down to fear and a lack of faith in God.

So, to those who have adult children who are born again and Spirit filled. Indeed give advice and share your opinion but do not try and over-rule and control the situation. It will not work out well for you, in almost all cases you will drive your "child," away and then at some later point will have to repent and ask your son or daughter's forgiveness along with God of course.

As I say, if you do not have adult children, this will be all theory to you. Do not worry, life will surely teach you valuable lessons as you go along and mature in the Lord..............bro Frank

Mark 10:9

What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.

Under the New Covenant we are baptized in the Holy Spirit. Ultimately he gives council. We are under the covering of Christ. He is the one who leads.

If God has truly brought two people together. Understanding they are believers in the Lord Jesus and a man and woman. Is it possible that those who counseled against such marriage are trying to separate what God has joined together, if so then such counsel is going against the Holy Spirit. Such counsel is going against God himself.

My thiughts.

Bro Blaine