Steven: There are a lot of tools that we use to help us rightly divide scripture. But the number one tool is context...scripture commenting on scripture. We must study the whole of the word of God so we have the full counsel of scripture before we fix a conclusion. I applaud you for your study and for your desire to present the conclusion you have drawn for others to critique. When we do this, we must do it with the right motivation. Are we seeking the opinion of others so that we might come to a knowledge of the truth, or are we seeking a debate for its own sake. Do we want to be proven right, or do we want to ultimately be correct in our interpretation?

There is so much about God that we do not understand. We are finite, created beings who are trying to comprehend an infinite, eternal being. We are incarnate. We are lock into flesh, this earth, and time. God is outside of all of these. He is Spirit. One of our problems is that we only have an understanding of what it means to be eternal from our own temporal perspective. So we really don't understand eternity or eternal existence much at all.

Jesus incarnation was not his creation. It was an eternal being, the Son of God, humbling Himself and taking on the form of a man.

I want you to consider the following scriptures.

John 5:54-58. Jesus Himself claimed to have existed before Abraham. The Jews were saying exactly what it seems you are saying. They were saying that Jesus' existence began at His birth. He corrects then and says, "Before Abraham was, I am."

Philippians 2:7. Paul tells us that Jesus was in the form of God and did not consider Himself to be taking what did not rightfully belong to Him to claim equality with God. God says that He is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth. So Jesus was also present as a spiritual being before His incarnation. Paul goes on to tell us that Jesus humbled Himself and was made in the likeness of men. That is what the incarnation is. That is the whole of the doctrine of the incarnation. Jesus, in the form of God, condescended to flesh and blood for the purpose of paying the price for our sins. It is perhaps THE foundational doctrine of all of Christianity.

The idea that Jesus was only a thought in the mind of God until he was born to Mary is simply not supported by scripture in any way, shape, or form. In fact, the great weight of scripture clearly and plainly states the opposite.

I recall a time when I thought I had really arrived at a revelation in scripture that I had never seen before. I was excited about it, and took it to some brothers for review. I was very quickly shot down, and the scriptural evidence that they gave me clearly showed me that I was wrong. I was doing a good job of study, but my understanding was incomplete and there were other scriptures that spoke to the matter that I did not know about. Once I had the full counsel of scripture, I was able to come to a fuller understanding of the truth...and I had to wad up my wonderful revelation and pitch it in the can. But I was thankful that I now knew the truth.

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Travis

Brother Travis
I agree with you. And there is a lot in what I wrote that I knew would spark real debate. BUT,
MY Question was "DO CHRISTIANS JUST REPEAT WHAT THEY HAVE HEARD, OR DO THEY STUDY THE BIBLE AND KNOW WHAT THEY BELIEVE.
There is a lot here I cannot explain nor do I know the exact meaning of all the Bible truths. But I do know I discuss Bible with a lot of people that do not know WHY they believe what they say. It is interesting to me that in all I wrote this one point seems to be the one we can't get past. Yes Jesus is God and eternal. In the HUMAN realm as a man HE was born lived and Died resurrected and rewarded. In the eternal realm of God He is eternal. WE MUST be sure to See Jesus is BOTH GOD and MAN, He has to be a man to the work of a high Priest that He did.
Heb5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Heb 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are wayward; for he himself also is beset with weakness.
Heb 5:3 And for this reason he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins


I want every one to KNOW WHY They BELIEVE!

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Hard Questions help us all come to that reason.

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Steven

Sister Brenda

I do agree with you, I do not have all the answers but I know there are many things in the Church teaching that are not any better understood. I am not Calvinist, that makes me VERY WRONG to some but I still feel God gave man a free right to Choose. I am not Catholic I think Jesus paid for All Sin ONCE FOR ALL, so again I am seen as wrong.
THAT IS NOT MY POINT, I asked DO CHristians know WHY they Believe what they repeat from "Church Teachnigs"
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

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Steven

Brother Fletcher


One what three who's! I think Charles Stanley said that but it is good any way.

THERE IS O N E GOD and three persons we MUST NOT make it three GODs. But in personal relation the the Time space realm of man there are three PERSONS. No I cannot explain it any better than One what three who's!

Thank you for the support, I don't know all the answers but no one else does either.

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Steven

No worries,
Personally after I found out enough to know "they" were wrong on allot of stuff, and saw how they devoured each other I began to question everything.... started over from scratch-
Basically I admitted I didn't know anything and imagined I was on a deserted island and had never been taught or indoctrinated by any man made system and a bible washed up on shore and I read it...what would I believe it was saying? So I began reading it again, with a fresh eye....That changed everything for me as I only had an allegiance to and a hunger for, the truth. Not finished yet but there are def some "golden calves" in the church that need to come down.
Nowadays and for centuries people are far more concerned with being "right" rather than righteous,...my eye is set on one end, the pleasure of my Father who is in Heaven. Whatever that requires I'll do it, whatever that costs I'll pay it, wherever it leads I'll follow it, whenever it stops so shall I. Tho I may at times fail His grace, He will lift me and set my feet on the ancient paths and in the end if I fall short of the victory He won for me, it's no discredit to Him and it's all on me. Tho if I make it to the end of the race, finish well, having kept the pace it is all credited to Him, His mercy, His faithfulness, His righteousness, His grace.
Blessings to you brother, keep excavating and polishing what you find, mining the word of God is never a waste of time and it's not about being right but glory God gets from us striving....
Strive to maintain unity in the faith
Strive to enter through the straight gate
Strive to enter into His rest
Love every minute of it;)
Without love we are nothing and there's not nearly enough of it here on SI much less in the world-

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Fletcher

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Travis

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Steven