Brothers Tuc, D. Miller, William...

I sincerely love each of you and appreciate and have learned from each of your contributions here on SI. You are all my brothers in Christ and I praise His name for what He has done in and thru each of you. So I say this in love and implore each of you to seriously consider this passage of scripture in light of your recent posts/positions- as I have no desire in me to "be right" but I do earnestly contend for the faith as it was given us by the apostles.
If what each of you are saying is the whole of the story then what do you do with these words...?



26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Brothers I honestly ask you, is this not fundamental to our faith?
And are not the scriptures clear here as in other passages that we, after enlightenment/new birth whatever you wanna call it, we can shrink/draw back into sin/perdition?

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Do not the scriptures as a whole exhort us to be patient and persevere in faith?
If our unity/identification with Christ in spirit is "all there is to it" then why dear brothers do the scriptures not plainly state this? And why are there continued and repeated warnings AFTER salvation to discipline ourselves, beware of false teachers and strange doctrines etc...

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Fletcher

Dear brother Fletcher,

We are not far from agreement at all.

I agree with all you have said about self discipline and perseverance etc.

The book of Hebrews is written mainly to confirm the High Priesthood of Jesus and the all sufficiency of His blood sacrifice.
Therefore Hebrews 10 which you quote is not speaking to individual sins but The sin of unbelief, the drawing back from faith in Jesus Christ.

The most precious possession we have is our faith in Jesus Christ and therefore the greatest spiritual attacks we endure are those which attempt to draw us away from that faith. This is The fight of faith we fight!

Look again at the encouragement of verse 39: but we are Not of them who draw back to perdition.....

AMEN

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William

I don't follow after the doctrine of sinless perfection and the passages you sited are more geared toward those who turn away from Jesus Christ and His priesthood and turn again to Judaism. I guess if you was to stretch it to be symbolical or a type of you may be able to use it as those who start off believing in the all sufficiency of Christ and His sacrifice and Priestly office, how one once walked in Faith but now turned away and legalistically attempted to earn their own way into the Kingdom of God instead of resting in the intercessions and sacrifices of Christ, they lost their trust in His eternal Blood and the workings of the Holy Spirit. I don't think you have a good handle on the book of Hebrews and how to properly exegete it.1Jo 1:9 confession of sins Jas 5:16 confession of faults 1Jo 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
There is a good resource www.blueletterbible.org you may want to explore it can be used to help you gain a better handle on the Word of God

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D.Miller

Thank you both for your responses they are both much appreciated and are taken seriously in light of this discussion.

It is not unfamiliar to me to hear that a particular book was written and only applies to a particular group ie; Hebrews to the Jews, however if we follow this stream of logic, most if not all of the scriptures we have can be dismissed on this premise. For if Hebrews is exclusively for the Jews then so it is with Ephesians, Thessalonians, Galatians, etc...
I have also heard it said that the words of Jesus before the cross also do not apply to us and I find this too to be a convenient way of dismissing the words of our Lord. (Tho I'm not suggesting either of you hold this position)

So in light of the rejection of this warning in Hebrews as being applicable to us as Gentiles, may I offer this passage of scripture from 2nd Peter 2 which is a parallel to the aforementioned text...

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Please understand I present this in a meek and gentle spirit not seeking contention, rather I hope to better understand how you brothers address these passages in light of the position you're presenting here.

Also brother D. Miller-
Thank you for the BLB suggestion, it happens to be the first app I ever downloaded and one of the only that transfers when my device upgrades. It is a trusted and beloved resource for me and without question my most used app.

Again thank you both for your continued patience with me as I inquire further into your understanding of our Fathers words:)

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Fletcher

2Ti 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Your conclusions at the outset of this response are way off and you clearly do not have ears to hear what has been written to you.

What you did in the prior post was to misapply the Hebrew texts in an effort to really label us as apostates as those who have turned away from Christ, at the very lest you are really trying hard to place condemnation or judgement on Tuc/William/and me. When you see, let me rephrase that for you, WHEN YOU SEE your BROTHER IN SIN GO TO HIM. I may be missing something here, but I don't recall having knowledge of talking to anyone or being directly confronted by anyone personally. I doubt that you went to South Africa or any other region to spy out and literally see anyone commit a sin and if you did why didn't you simply go to them and confront them? You are walking dangerously close to those who sit on Moses seat and judge and condemn another's servant Rom 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Rom 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

My recommendation is that you gain a good handle on Romans Chapter 8 before you take to being the voice and conscience of another as one who thinks they speak for God.

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D.Miller

Dohz-

What are you talking about? Fletcher hasn't called you or anyone else an apostate.

He was simply using the Hebrews passage to show that a true believer can fall away. You may not agree and that is fine. But I don't see where he has called anyone an apostate.

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Todd

Wow!
Umm ok then...
Blessings to you brother D.

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Fletcher

If you truly believe that you still have a sinful nature I doubt I can change your mind.

That was one of the worst translations of Romans seven that I have ever read.

Look again at this:

Rom 7:21-23, "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

When Paul attempted to do good and avoid evil he found that he was fighting against a law.

He is not talking about sin but a law. If you try to do good and avoid evil you will find the same law. You will find out the same thing thing that he found out - that you will be unable not only to do the good that you want but you will end up doing things that you hate.

This law will prevent you from doing that!

Now the good news is that Christ has set you free from this law!

Rom 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

When I tried to do good and avoid evil I found that it was IMPOSSIBLE. What I hated most is that I couldn't change myself. Unknowingly, I automatically assumed that I ought to be able to fix myself, especially now that I was a Christian. Hadn't I managed myself for years? I thought that now that I was in Christ, I could do an even better job. Wrong--the lie again! My identity is not my flesh. My personhood is in my spirit where the Holy Spirit makes His home in me. Our flesh is only the means to express our Spirit union.

I had to repent of ALL self confidence, all attempts to somehow improve myself or make myself better.

As long as any person attempts to do good and avoid evil they put THEMSELVES under this law and as a result will only experience bitter defeat and failure.

Now I am free from this law because I am under under a better law. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Major Ian Thomas, who has sermons on here has a saying "The only one capable of living the Christian life is Christ". He's talking about Christ in you!
Also if you go to David Pawson's (possibly the best actual teacher I've ever heard) website he has a really good short series on Romans 7.

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Andrew Wales

Thanks tuc,for addressing Romans 7:21-23.

You say, "...I doubt I can change your mind."

This law spoken of here...where is it?
"...law in my members...the law of sin which is in my members."

Twice we're told where, and we're also told that we're warring.

When I receive my new body, the war will be over!

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Cor 15:42-49

And in regard to you changing my mind...the Holy Spirit has wrought that in me when He began that work of salvation by granting me repentance. Repentance at the root is a change of mind.

We're kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

"My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness."


The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men. Proverbs 24:9

Young's Literal Translation
The thought of folly is sin, And an abomination to man is a scorner.