Hi ginnyrose,

I am not familiar with the "eastern lightening" movement. I have never heard of this until now. Can you or someone else give a brief description or a link to some information.

Thanks

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Patrick Ersig

Here is a link:
http://www.cswusa.com/Countries/China-LighteningfromtheEast.htm

Paul Hattaway wrote the article. If you do a search on Alta-vista using the terms "Eastern Lightning" and Paul Hattaway you should be able to find it as well.

Be prepared to read a while. It is very sobering....

ginnyrose

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Sandra Miller

Thankyou Sister ginnyrose,

After reading about the Back to Jerusalem movement and "The Heavenly Man," I thought that China would become a light in this world. Now I see that Satan is working harder than ever.

It is a sad morning.

In Christ
Jeff

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Jeff Marshalek

Jeff, we can easily see how the Enemy is working so desperately hard to destroy Believers. I, too, thought as you did about the Chinese church. I reckon there is no group of believers or individuals immune from the enemy's attack.

There is one important lesson one gets when you read the article on the Eastern Lightening, the enticements they use: money! Did you catch that? Now let us ask ourselves a question: how often does the love of money entice us and get us into such a grip from which we cannot escape without suffering some loss? And what do we call this?


Something to think about, IMHO.

What do you think?

ginnyrose

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Sandra Miller

Hi All...

New here and haven't had a chance to introduce myself. I just saw this thread and had to jump in.

My mentor/discipler is a missionary to China for Campus Crusade.

I read The Heavenly Man a few months ago and asked him about it. I was amazed by the book of Acts type stuff that was going on over there.

My mentor basically told me that while much of what Yun wrote about was indeed true...it is still occurring. However, he also said that since Yun has come to the west he has been decieved and fallen into western materialism.

He suggested and I concur that we pray that Mr. Yun repents of his wordliness and takes back up the mantle of simplicity and surrender.

In Christ Alone,
Conqueror
ginnyrose wrote:
Jeff, we can easily see how the Enemy is working so desperately hard to destroy Believers. I, too, thought as you did about the Chinese church. I reckon there is no group of believers or individuals immune from the enemy's attack.

There is one important lesson one gets when you read the article on the Eastern Lightening, the enticements they use: money! Did you catch that? Now let us ask ourselves a question: how often does the love of money entice us and get us into such a grip from which we cannot escape without suffering some loss? And what do we call this?


Something to think about, IMHO.

What do you think?

ginnyrose

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Jeff Marshalek

Thank you all! As an ethnographer and missionary living in China, I would like to help you all understand the cultural issues that may be influencing some of our opinions about Brother Yun and those Chinese brothers who have criticized him.

First – a confession: I, as an American, have developed an extremely subtle but very offensive cultural practice. I can be extremely simple and humble in both words and personal presence, and yet somehow convey a “know-it-all” attitude. We Americans are so famous for this that any of us who does not acknowledge it must be either blind or completely isolated from the views of people from nearly every other country in the world. I have lashed myself for this, and attempted to repent, but still people sometimes my dear friends from Central Asia come up to me after an inspiring ministry presentation and kindly let me know that I have committed the same sin once again.

With that backdrop, and with the knowledge the many of my dear Chinese brothers may be offended, I would like to share a similar issue that many have noticed about the Chinese people. They are SO simple and kind and lovable and humble and sweet in person, and yet at the same time they sometimes convey a certain braggadocio and at times, without intending or even realizing, they drop personal pronouns of “I” and “we” onto situations that are much larger than their own personal involvement has experienced. Their stories are BIG and sometimes the numbers they share are also BIG, and yes, exaggerated. I must emphasize the subtlety of this. I have never met a Chinese believer, or even any Chinese person who I would characterize as a braggart or proud person.

Of the 14 house church networks that I am familiar with, not a single one of them has escaped this deeply engrained cultural trait. Five years ago I was told that over 50,000 BTJ missionaries were ready to go from eastern China to Northwest China for ministry to Muslims where I work. After persistent requests I have yet to receive one who is willing to come to the city in which I work, which is a prefecture capital and the center of the ethic group with whom I work.

(If you are with a BTJ organization and wish to respond, please tell me who I can contact for more details!)

So is the BTJ movement all talk and no action? No, but we must understand that the new generation of believers in China is just that – new. In the zeal of their youth and the largess of their culture, these numbers have been reported.

Having made my point, and illustrated it with a concrete example, I want to comment specifically on Brother Yun. I do not doubt his testimony or the facts at all. Those who are eyewitnesses have that right, but I do not, nor do I desire to. I would tend to think that the criticisms about him have come from jealously and a general cringing that some may feel regarding ministries that involve many miracles.

On the other hand, I understand those who are somewhat put off by the manner of presentation in “The Heavenly Man”. It grates against western culture in the very same way that western pompousness grates against eastern cultures. In the eastern context it may be fine to mention the length of a fast that I did and to repeat the number so many times in the context of sharing my testimony, but to some western ears it can sound, as one person as put it “too…”. I understand why some have put the book down half way.

Of course some Chinese believers have also been offended at the manner of presentation, just as I have been offended at the pride of my own culture that seems so subtle to me, but so obvious to those of other cultures. The heart is truly exceeding deceitful, and I hope that we all, as Christians, can take steps to maturity, moving beyond our cultural and personal faults, and having patience with others as they seek to do so also.

(for security reasons, name withheld)

Ps – I have more to share about new developments in the relationships between the house fellowships and the three self fellowships, but I will save that for another time.

Well [i]Thank you[/i] Northeast and a warm welcome to SI.

What a great unmasking of truth, those subtleties of our undoing. And how true the exaggerations especially us Americans, steeped in the big fish story ... How much culture affects us, even the regenerate being pulled and tugged, practically compelled to offer up an uneducated opinion on everything under the sun. The tendency to speak over our heads, beyond our understanding.

Find it all very bothersome, this compelling to 'paint' things or as your mention: "Too" ...
Strange how being 'somewhat dishonest' has become so acceptable even amongst the Brethren. To put ones finger on it is to cause a yelp and cry, the reflexive defending, rarely a repenting.

Your forthcoming and honesty is very endearing.

Welcome!

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Mike Balog

Northeast,

Interesting piece...

Now I have a question: you wrote:

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Sandra Miller

Sir, I have another question for you:
Recently we met a young Chinese couple (University Students)who are seriously considering the claims of Christianity but have not made the decision yet to follow Jesus (that I know of). How can a person best relate to them? Presently the wife speaks English very poorly and communication is difficult.

ginnyrose

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Sandra Miller