| Poster | Thread | staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227
| | Re: | | Hi Sree
I didnt say that Billy Graham did not suffer persecution hence my logic remains.Billy Graham did many things that he was bashed over.
Whether the Chinese Were or were not told about persecution is irrelevant to whether the trib is post or pre or non.
If they were taught correctly about persecution it has absolutely nothing to do with the great tribulation.
I believe that pre trib Christians who do desire to live a Godly life do get persecuted and understand clearly and experience Persecution as part of the course.Pre tribulation Godly Spirit Filled Christians have no problem with excepting persecution.This is just a red herring arguement in my opinion.
.From 2 TIM 13 I can turn the tables on you and say that you are saying their is no such a thing as Pre tribulation believer who desires to live a godly life.
You are saying that Pre tribulation believers dont experience persecution and that they are ignoring basic christian teaching that some of us may die for our faith
The doctrine of the rapture has to be taken from scripture not experience.Someone cant make up doctrine from whether they experienced alot of persecution or a little persecution or whether they were prepared for persecution or not prepared for persecution.
Your Quote:
But there is a difference between somone striking you from back and striking from front. Attack from back takes us by surprise and adds shock to pain!
Could you explain this one with some scripture.
The gospel of "Persecution" as preached on SI when it is taken to the extreme Is another "Gospel" there is no grace in it.
Dont feel like you have to counter my mind blowing logic! lol
On a foot note isnt funny that we will be persecuted for only desiring to live a godly life even though at this moment we may not actually living a godly life but would love to be living a godly life
Blessings Staff
ps I guess my main point for posting earlier is that both post trib and pre trib effect our view on alot of other things and in particular I find post trib believers quick to point out the excesses of pre trib believers without addressing the excesses of the post trib.
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|  2015/4/22 18:23 | Profile | dolfan
Member
Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama
| | Re: | | The most significant breakdown in this worthwhile debate--and it is worthwhile-- is the inability of the advocates of any particular view to state a systematic Scriptural explanation of it without attacking the weaknesses or doubts about another of the views.
It is this inability that quickly sidetracks us from sustaining the exposition of Scripture and spins us down rabbit trails and (oftentimes) personal attacks. NOTE: NOT saying anyone is attacking here on the thread. But frustration wicks run very short on this topic and I wonder if it is not because we run aground so fast in our own support of our own views.
We would all do a favor for our own selves if we laid down our views on it completely, prayed earnestly for the Spirit to remove all bias or favor we have toward any view, and read afresh exclusively those Bible believing, Spirit filled men who hold a view opposite the one we espoused. We could perhaps see what God would do to out views, minds and hearts on this.
We will have to unite on this soon IMO.
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Tim
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| | 2015/4/22 20:46 | Profile | Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953
| | Re: | | Quote:
They will be busy with their work,
How could they busy with their work just prior to Jesus Post tribulation appearance?
Jesus made two clear points
1. Until
2.Everything is normal before Judgement
I never said everything is normal. It is your perception from the words of Jesus. Even Jesus did not say that everything is normal, otherwise he contradicts his own statements on the beginning of Birth pains. How can scripture contradict itself? So definitely the point of comparing with Noah and Lot is not saying everything will be normal. Otherwise there is so much contradiction in scripture.
So the point of comparing with Noah and Lot is to prove that the unbelievers will have no idea about the coming judgment. During Noah time there was so much violence on earth, I am sure many unbelievers suffered hell on earth due to the violence that they themselves once supported. So it was not a normal time, that time can be compared to a war zone of current age, where nothing will be normal. So only thing common between Noah and Lot time judgment was the fact that people were not aware of the upcoming judgment upon them. Simple point that Jesus made, we do not need to twist the scripture to make it say something that Jesus never intended.
Read the scripture with context, if you take it out of context then you will easily twist the meaning,
Matthew 24:36-"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark.
If you read from verse 36 it is clear that Jesus is referring to Noah story to make the point that no one will know about the time of his coming, especially the unbelievers will not have a clue. IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE.
Similarly in Luke 17: 26, it you read from verse 22, Jesus is referring to Noah and Lot in the context of the time of his appearance. He warned them not to be deceived by anyone saying 'He is coming here or there'. So the time of his coming will not be known just as the time of judgment was not known in Noah and Lot period.
If you read scripture with context then you will never be deceived by such false teaching. It is the attribute of Satan to break scripture and take it out of context, just like how he tempted Lord Jesus.
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Sreeram
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| | 2015/4/23 1:58 | Profile | Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953
| | Re: | | Quote:
.From 2 TIM 13 I can turn the tables on you and say that you are saying their is no such a thing as Pre tribulation believer who desires to live a godly life.
You are saying that Pre tribulation believers dont experience persecution and that they are ignoring basic christian teaching that some of us may die for our faith
You did not understand the logical counter argument that I put, because your answer not even close to addressing the point I made.
If Corie made her statement based on personal experience then even Paul wrote this verse based on his personal experience. If you can assume Cories statement was biased by her personal experience then even you have all rights to assume that Paul's verse in 2 Timothy is also based on his personal experience. There are many Americans who think they live a Godly life but suffered no persecution, unless they considered their creditcard dept as persecution! So for them easily Paul is speaking some nonsense based on his experience and not applicable to them. If you assumed one thing then you have to assume another as well. Do you at least now get my point.
Quote:
Whether the Chinese Were or were not told about persecution is irrelevant to whether the trib is post or pre or non.
If they were taught correctly about persecution it has absolutely nothing to do with the great tribulation.
It is clearly relevant. All the Pre Trib teachers of west who influenced Chinese Christians made them believe that they will never suffer persecution. If Pre Trib believer believes in some kind of persecution then why not great persecution? The origin of PreTrib view is not at all scriptural, there is no scriptural proof given for it. In all the discussions had so far in SI, I have never witnessed one scriptural proof at all. All Pretrib supporters have done is to protest against all Protrib scriptural proof, they only said that they do not agree with Post trib scriptural proof. So the origin of PreTrib view itself is based on general hatred to persecution, it is too live a happy Christian life on this earth. How will you expect these teachers to teach new Chinese believers on persecution? Hence they have to take the blame for the attack.
Quote:
The gospel of "Persecution" as preached on SI when it is taken to the extreme Is another "Gospel" there is no grace in it.
No one preaches any persecution other than what the Bible clearly warns of coming. Persecution has to be preached else we run at the risk of being taken by surprise when persecution comes. The Chinese believers are beautiful example for the same.
_________________
Sreeram
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| | 2015/4/23 2:15 | Profile | Sree
Member
Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953
| | Re: | | Quote:
What is your verse to prove its not God's Wrath?
What has your mind so convinced its not Gods Wrath?
Great tribulation to my understanding is the one that will bring the antichrist out to rule the world. He will persecute Christians. There is nothing mentioned in scripture according to me that shows it is God's wrath on all the people including believers. TO me it is an added statement. I have never read or heard about it other than few PreTrib people speak it out in SI.
How cans someone give a proof of how something is not there is scripture? One can give a proof of something being present in scripture. If you believe Great Tribulation is God's wrath then give a scriptural proof of the same, otherwise it is a lie.
Now if Great Tribulation is not God's wrath then it should be a tribulation that brings persecution on believers to a level unheard before by AntiChrist himself. God permits these things to happen, and shorterns the day for the same of the elect.
_________________
Sreeram
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| | 2015/4/23 2:20 | Profile | staff
Member
Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227
| | Re: | | Hi Sree,
First of all why have we to "assume" anything.Paul was very aware of previous scripture and regularly thought from previous scripture.It didnt have to be experential doctrine.
Also their is a difference between Paul who is accepted as canon and Corrie who is not.Pauls words are gospel literally.
Or do you think we can start a newer version with the gospel according to Corrie?
It is obvous that you are partly basing your Post trib view on experience rather than the word.How could what happenes to Chinese Christians Nowadays dictate what the bible says from two thousand plus years ago.You are saying that because false teachers thought the wrong thing to Chinese Christians that the rapture is Post Tribulation.False teachers always teach the wrong thing but whether they do or not does not effect doctrine.
Are you really saying that all Pre Tribulation believers "dont desire to live Godly lives"?
All the Pre tribulation believers I know understand Persecution perfectly and some would expect die for their faith (great persecution) and desire to live Godly Lives.
If you desire to live a Godly life then you understand Persecution.
Again the Post Trib believer wont disassociate persecution from the great tribulation.One is something that happens all the time sometimes lesser and sometimes more and the other is specific period of time set by God to end this Age that will have persecution in it.
My Main Concern is the way the two views effect our other theological views.If you are pre trib and take it to the extreme you can be do anything you want(only if you discard alot of scripture about right living).Alot of false teachers are attracted to this view but this does not make the view unscriptural.You cant base your views on What American Tv Evangelists say and then react to the opposite of that. If you are post trib and take it to the extreme you will be storing cupboards of beans and cowering under the bed afraid of your shadow.Their is no grace in preaching persecution all the time.Its another Gospel that has bewitched people.Their is a time and a place for teaching about believers persecution but not in the way SI believers do.Instead of having conferences about the Jesus Christ and his grace the devil has cleverly replaced it with persecution conferences.This may be the real lie here that taken to extremes both views are way of the mark.
The origin of the pre trib view has nothing to do with persecution except in the mind of a post trib believer.
I would go into the wrath of God scriptures but my original intention of posting was not to defend the Pre Trib view but to point out that if we are being fair minded we cant call other Spirit Filled Christians Liars because of their tribulation views.
Yours Staff
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| | 2015/4/23 6:06 | Profile | staff
Member
Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227
| | Re: | | Hi Sree
Its not perception Jesus Clearly says that normal daily life was going ahead eating drinking marrying buying selling.
They clearly understood that Noah was saying Judgement was coming but they didnt believe him.The problem wasnt that they werent told but that they didnt believe.Lot also told them what was right and wrong but they didnt believe him.
Everything was normal,they were told that Judgement was coming but because of their unbelief they were caught by surprize and unprepared.If they had believed they would have got on the Ark and they would have left Sodom or God would have rescued them as well.Judgement comes upon them as a surprize because of unbelief.Its not because of witness that they were Judged.
Judgement does not come until the Christian is safe that is the point Of "UNTIL".He was NOT talking about persecution he was talking about Judgement.
Now that "Safe" might mean being prepared for a long time like Noah or missing out by the skin of your teeth like Lot,it may mean being protected here on earth or it may mean being raptured.
yours Staff
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| | 2015/4/23 6:24 | Profile | budgie
Member
Joined: 2011/2/25
Posts: 266
| | Re: Math 24 | | The more one looks at Matthew 24 with simplistic eyes and ears the more clearer it becomes, it was never intended to be such a deep and theological writing that can only be understood by some theological professor.
The Disciples asked a simple question and Jesus answered back with a simple answer, Jesus told the disciples and He also tells us exactly when He will Come back.
Jesus Himself stated that after the period of Tribulation has ended, there will be clear and evident signs in the Skies, the Sun, Moon, Stars and Heavens.
Jesus then said that was the time He was Coming.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Pretty simple and pretty clear, Jesus then said that no man knows the day or hour of THAT day that He is Coming after those events BUT Jesus states the following.
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Notice Jesus said all these things and this includes the signs in the days after the Tribulation has ended.
Don't believe anyone who says Jesus is Coming before these signs, Believe Jesus not men.
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
There is much deceptive teaching today that speaks against the words of Jesus our Saviour.
Believe Jesus and His simple teaching.
Jesus does not say anywhere in scripture that He is Coming before the Tribulation, He Clearly States sometime After the Tribulation has ended He will Come and gather His Chosen Ones to Himself from the 4 points of Heaven and 4 points of Earth.
Paul said brothers do not be deceived for Jesus will not gather Us to Himself until after the Apostasy and after the Son of Perdition is revealed, Paul said that Jesus destroys the Son of Perdition when He comes, so does Daniel, so does John.
I will Trust Paul, Jesus, John and Daniel, Who will you trust?
Jesus is the Truth, He told us so beforehand when He comes and it is certainly not before the Tribulation.
Who will say that Jesus is a Liar? certainly not me, I will Trust in His simple words.
There is not one verse in scripture where Jesus states that He is Coming before the Tribulation, No Not One.
Jesus will fulfil every Prophecy that has been declared.
There is not one Prophecy that states that He is Coming before the Tribulation, No Not One.
Please Brothers and Sisters believe the words of Jesus.
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| | 2015/4/26 0:34 | Profile | TMK
Member
Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA
| | Re: | | But it is so convenient to just explain away the extremely simple and straightforward statement of Jesus that "this generation shall not pass away" before these things occurred. How do you think his disciples standing right there understood that statement, especially when THEY are the ones who asked Jesus "when will these things be?"
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Todd
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| | 2015/4/26 8:39 | Profile | ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | QUOTE:
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Jesus that "this generation shall not pass away" before these things occurred. How do you think his disciples standing right there understood that statement
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I am told that history informs us the early Believers remembered these words of Jesus so that when Titus besieged Jerusalem, they fled. It is said that no Christians died in that conquest.
Prophecy students will tell you a lot of prophecy has dual meanings. I suspect they are right. Consider the ones given about Jesus' sufferings - they had immediate application and future application as well.
Prophecy is so complex that it will draw a serious student to it again and again and again and each time there is some new inspiration. I suspect God made it so to keep us wondering and trusting.
My understanding. And I love the book of Revelation. Learn something new every time I read it! And....I am left thinking, "WOW"!
Sandra
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Sandra Miller
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| | 2015/4/26 9:53 | Profile |
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