| Poster | Thread | ADisciple
Member
Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada
| | Re: | | Paul West said, "The spirit of denominationalism in its infant stage, and promptly rebuked by Jesus."
And have you not just proved Frank's position, Paul? Those most used of God have often been involved in setting up a new denomination. But denominationalism is not of God.
That is not to say that there are not many wonderful saints scattered throughout the denominations, as well as many in leadership positions who love the Lord with all their heart and are leading their flocks with integrity.
But God is not content to leave thing this way. He will yet have things His own way-- all His people one, and this with the same unity enjoyed between Father and Son. To what intent?
"...That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them as Thou hast love Me."
When the world sees this kind of unity they are going to get down on their knees. As it is now, they mock us for our divisions.
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Allan Halton
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|  2014/10/2 15:11 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Bro Alan writes...
"That is not to say that there are not many wonderful saints scattered throughout the denominations, as well as many in leadership positions who love the Lord with all their heart and are leading their flocks with integrity." I would certainly agree to that and say amen.
"But God is not content to leave thing this way. He will yet have things His own way-- all His people one, and this with the same unity enjoyed between Father and Son. To what intent?
"...That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them as Thou hast love Me."
When the world sees this kind of unity they are going to get down on their knees. As it is now, they mock us for our divisions."
Amen brother. The world will see that kind of unity before the Lord returns and it will probably be persecution that brings the Body of Christ together in a visable unity.....bro Frank |
| | 2014/10/2 15:18 | |
| | Re: | | Hi brother Paul,
My sincere advice is to play the ball and not the man. I may disagree with you and think you are wrong, which I do, but it does not lead me to believe you are elitist in your views, or that you are sowing discord because you disagree with me or others. That is why I gave multiple scriptures in defense of my assertions that denominationalism is not God's will nor are the systems created by man. Perhaps we could refrain from pesonalizing this and stick to what Scriptures say about denominationalism? It would probably be more helpful and save the thread going sour in factionism, dont you agree? .............bro Frank |
| | 2014/10/2 15:24 | | PaulWest
Member
Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
And have you not just proved Frank's position, Paul? Those most used of God have often been involved in setting up a new denomination. But denominationalism is not of God.
Right. The thing I am laboring on is the spirit of exclusivity in denominationalism. It is okay to be different, to worship God differently. Being Baptist, Pentecostal, Mennonite or whatever is not the issue. I do not think denominations are evil in and of themselves. They are the natural effect of like-minded brethren whose beliefs, convictions and "dark glass vision" of theology find a measure of solidarity and so they come together under that unification. But this "unification" should never become all-comprehensive to the point of exclusivity. In other words, Baptists and Pentecostals should still count each other as brethren, as members of the body of Christ. Red blood cells are different from white blood cells but both live in the blood and bring life.
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2014/10/2 15:32 | Profile | PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
My sincere advice is to play the ball and not the man. I may disagree with you and think you are wrong, which I do, but it does not lead me to believe you are elitist in your views, or that you are sowing discord because you disagree with me or others. That is why I gave multiple scriptures in defense of my assertions that denominationalism is not God's will nor are the systems created by man. Perhaps we could refrain from pesonalizing this and stick to what Scriptures say about denominationalism? It would probably be more helpful and save the thread going sour in factionism, dont you agree?
Brother, please show me where I've attacked you personally in any of my posts in this discussion. For some reason you seem very defensive and I'm sort of scratching my head here, wondering why this discussion has suddenly taken this weird turn. I've been respectful toward you throughout all this and made some general observations about denominationalism that you are now apparently taking as a personal affront. I'm sorry my words were taken as such.
I'll end it here, dear brother. May God bless you.
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2014/10/2 15:41 | Profile | brothagary
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Joined: 2011/10/23
Posts: 2556
| | Re: | | how is Paul or i playing the man frank ,,none of those scriptures support what your saying Paul raised valid points ,why push an agenda frank that is not really part of sermon index's ministry ,,
even Paul called him self a Pharisee
you mind set brother is a prime example of contentious denomination in the heart ,as oraco gave example
What i said before is some think that is noticeable when you push this agenda friend ,its nothing personal relay ,please dont take it as an attack, im sure many pastes and devoted Christians might take what you are saying as attacking the body of Christ personal ,,
I dont think it is a good idea to esteem a mans writings as you have done ,as if it carries some special authority ..
im off to work god bless |
| | 2014/10/2 15:42 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Paul, you write........
"But this "unification" should never become all-comprehensive to the point of exclusivity."
Unity should never be so good that it excludes? Now brother, you have certainly lost me. Unity is the whole, the one Body. One would have to remove themselves, exclude themselves from it and form a faction and call themselves by some other name than Christ and then exclude the whole. This is the genesis of denominationalism brother, factionism. We all, who know Jesus, are brothers and sisters, no more no less. When we come together in unity, as many who read this could testify, there is a wonderful Spirit that comes down from above as you yourself testified of. This is our calling from our high priest in John 17...........bro Frank |
| | 2014/10/2 15:44 | |
| | Re: | | God bless you too Gary, playing the man would be something like this I think.........
"The elitist flesh, on the other hand, revels in sewing discord, disunity and factionism in those who are not a carbon copy of its own image."
"I dont think it is a good idea to esteem a mans writings as you have done ,as if it carries some special authority .."
I have not done that brother. I used a quote from Broadbent and then eloborated in my own words. It's the word of God that carries authority which is why I gave multiple Scripture references for unity in the Body and have yet to hear one Scripture reference from anyone to support factionalism and denoniminationalism and systems of men. Those who know Jesus are merely brothers and sisters in one Body through one Spirit although men down through the ages have sought to identify themselves in a myriad of ways other than Christ...........bro Frank
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| | 2014/10/2 15:52 | | ADisciple
Member
Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada
| | Re: | | Paul said, "Being Baptist, Pentecostal, Mennonite or whatever is not the issue."
It is the issue, Paul. But I don't feel inclined to take this much further here. I will just ask... is denominationalism the best God can do? If so, Christianity-- and God-- have turned out to be quite a disappointment.
...Can't leave this on that note. No, it's not the best God can do. It may be the best man can do, but I am confident God is not willing to settle for that.
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Allan Halton
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| | 2014/10/2 15:55 | Profile | Oracio
Member
Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | Paul West writes: Quote:
The Holy Spirit does not stumble weaker brethren. He does not provoke one to speak in tongues in a fellowship where tongues are not accepted. He does not provoke one to drink wine or eat meat in a fellowship where such may stumble others who do not share these convictions. The elitist flesh, on the other hand, revels in sewing discord, disunity and factionism in those who are not a carbon copy of its own image.
I think this particular point of dislike of certain “structures” is very key here. If we are placing a certain type of criteria on churches before we can fellowship with them, we ourselves may be the problem. I say that as one who used to place a certain “wide” criteria on churches before I’d be willing to fellowship in them. I used to think along these lines; “In order for me to fellowship at a church, there needs to be open participation of all the members allowed at the meetings; there cannot be a hierarchy where there is strong leadership of pastors; they must agree with me on the gifts of the Spirit and their operation in the meetings; they cannot meet in a building; they cannot have paid staff”, and I can probably think of more criteria I placed on churches.
For about a year or two, on and off I found myself trying to start a house church to fit with my understanding of what a church should look like. And I found myself embittered toward much of the Body of Christ. I was out of fellowship for much of that time.
But I’m convinced the Lord did a work in my heart to break much of my “spiritual pride”. I still have much pride I need to work on but by God’s grace much of the blinding in this area has been removed.
I am currently fellowshipping at a solid “Baptist” church where the senior pastor believes in the continuation of the gifts, but many of the members are cessationists. They do not practice speaking in tongues in the services but I believe the pastor would have no problem if that was practiced in the homes of members or elsewhere. The leadership extends the right hand of fellowship to every believer who agrees in the essentials of the Christian faith. I have been very blessed and edified since attending this church along with my family. I do not agree in all things with the senior pastor, particularly in end-times events, but we get along just fine and pray for each other’s ministries. He encourages me regarding the street evangelism I do and wishes to come out and team up with me soon.
The perfect ideal for churches is to have unity in all things, in doctrine and practice. But in this sin-cursed fallen world I do not believe we can all ever agree 100 percent in every secondary point of doctrine. Thus there must be unity in essentials and be willing to have respectful disagreement in non-essentials.
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Oracio
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| | 2014/10/2 16:02 | Profile |
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