Greg, you wrote.......

I was alluding to the statement you made:

"What I have found is some of the most sold out believers who are willing to follow God no matter what and who could no longer stomoch what passes for church in their land and, being led of the Holy Spirit, " came out of her."

And from that you got a " repudiation of all leadership?" To be honest brother, and this is just an observation, I think you have somewhat of an obsession with " strong leadership."

My statement simply alludes to the fact that in the last several years, I have met and witnessed so many wonderful sold out believers who have left the established church because God led them out. They could no longer stomoch the worldliness or lack of the presence of God. Maybe their particular denomination was embracing homosexuality, or outright worldliness or whatever.

How many millions flowed out of the Catholic church at the time of the reformation? I am sure there were a thousand voices claiming these people were rejecting the strong leadership of the Catholic church. Strong leadership has absolutely no meaning whatsoever if that leadership is not led by and allows the preeminence of Jesus. Minus that, it is just a bunch of power hungry men seeking to control, wanting the limelight and wanting the adoration of men.

Bro Neil is correct, Jesus will bring to pass, before He returns, the fulfillment of His own prophecy in John 17.
And the strong men will not be able to stop that, in fact, the strong men shall be diss-armed.

Noone writes.......

"I don't believe the religious system of our day will ever be revived because it has never truly lived in Jesus only it has never been built according to God's pattern. I believe it is not God breathed, it is man's creation based on OT priest hood, but in God's mercy there have been mercy drops, but there will never be the flood. God will never pour new wine into an old wineskin because he knows what will happen to it." Amen brother..........bro Frank

Hi Greg,

Here is the full quote I was alluding to......

""The holy Spirit will not lead us to repudiate all leadership, rather have a life of submission and peace with all men."

My question was, and it is a specific one, who is calling for a "repudiation of all leadership?" Remember, we have had this discussion many times in public and in private. No one gets to think something and then have those thoughts presented as fact. If you are of the opinion that I or others want to repudiate all leadership, then you should make the charge and stand by it. I have lost count of the times that I have told you that I am not against leadership.

I hope this clarifies and I await your answer brother as to who is repudiating all leadership. Is it a group of people in your opinion, is it individuals, is it I? Brother, could you also share with us what strong local leadership are you submitted to now or in the recent past? ......bro Frank

I went to sleep last night, just grieved in heart spirit and soul, slept a mere restless 4 or so, woke up, and went right into Acts, with a copy of the book you wrote, dear brother, right beside the Bible.

Searched diligently, made two pages of notes, NOT of whats in my "head", but asking to be filled with Holy Spirit, so that my words are 'salted'....and loving, and meek.

That said, I am in a peculiar situation, as it was only 12 years ago, that God revealed His Son to me and in me...in the flesh, i'm a Hebrew, even as a child, I was never a secular Jew...in name only as an ethnic thing. Never. I was not orthodox, why would I be?....even so young, I knew that the haredi, were not who I was in God.

for a long while, I did not know WHO I was in God, till He brought to the point of the Long Night, and up on that mountain, it was just God and me....no man preached the Gospel to me, as I cried out, alone, "God be with me, please be with me"...over and over....and then I KNEW I had to find the Church, so I asked the only person I trust with such matters, my sons's mother, "Do you know of a church I could go to", since I knew at that point, she was feeling her way to God.

Blessed be the Name of the Lord, that she led me to the church where pastor Ted labored. Ted became mentor, brother, best friend...and from that time on, I NEVER ceased to be in the Word of God. I thank Him for giving me that Holy Hunger...at night, always in secret prayer, and God put in my heart, a hunger for revival, which is how I found this site, first stopping at "fireonthealtar" dot com.

Now, I've written that testimony many times before, and wish not to belabor that, but I might lense things differently, because I NEVER stopped being a Jew. Its just that now, i'm a Jew who follows Jesus, and the problem I have is that when you speak of "2000 years of Church History"...I don't get the "warm and fuzzies" you might.

I don't know if you've read Michael Brown's book, "Blood on our Hands", but the tribe of my flesh, the Jews suffered unimaginable torture from the roman institution, for centuries, then Martin Luther, who started so strong and sadly finished so full of hate, was used by the hitler demoniacs to give "spiritual covering", whilst they burned millions upon millions of Jews...we all know this.

my point being, in the Old Testament, splayed out in all its soul rending sin, is the history of the Jews in the ancient kingdom of Judah and Israel....and each king gets progressively worse, with the exception of a few Godly Kings in Judah, before God used the Babylonians as an instrument of His Wrath...with the exception of Acts, the Early Church...the Church itself has NO Canonized history in the Bible, and it is my contention, that for almost 1700 years, the institutionalized church has largely failed God.

Of course, there have been bright and Shining Examples of The Kingdom of God, and dear saints who labored in the Love and Mercy of the LORD throughout these 1700 years I speak of, but these are mostly the exception rather than the rule....the history is THAT BAD. If I was a Gentile follower of Jesus, I would be ashamed and griefstricken...and as Jew, who follows Jesus, and KNOWS is history, its only the Indwelling Love of the Holy Spirit in me, that will NOT allow the words, or spirit of "hate and loath" of these supposed "christians" into my heart and soul.

So we come to Today, and I know that within a thirty mile radius, there were dozens of churches, many different denominations doing the same old thing, the same old time driven bulletin, but yesterday driven with particular urgency because the Packer game was at noon! oh oh, we cant miss THAT, heaven forbid!....yesterday, my body was drained of all energy and I slept from 11AM to 6PM..its my "thorn".

I've been to quite a few of these churchs, and I don't really want to recount what I've see, and What I haven't seen.

Now what has me, in such grief, is that , in desperation, I made the original post, trying to see, if ANY other saints shared my burden, or vision, and many dear saints responded, essentially saying "yes"...I outlined a simple ecclesiology, akin to worship sharing, and I feel as if ...you, brother Greg, have been the only opposer, right from the jump, implying my very original question is wrong. (KingJimmy was in there right away in opposition, in my sin, I asked him if he would stay off the thread, but then realized my error and asked his forgiveness.)

Brother Greg, there IS Freedom in Christ, and God knows, you are entitled to your opinion, especially in that this is YOUR website, and Praise God, one day God will reveal ALL the Good and True Things that have been engendered by this website.

and yes, there are thousands of sermons on this site, but I've only listened to two of the human vessels of Christ here, Len Ravenhill and Duncan Campbell...I've listened to others, but after 5-10 minutes, if I don't feel the Holy Spirit singing to my soul....I stop, yes, I also listen to a FEW sermons of Ian Paisely and many of Mike Brown's, but that's it.

the three non canonical books that have shaped me are "The Life of Brainerd" and Frank Bartleman's "Azusa Street", which was the first I read, and as I was reading it the first time in 2002, the Holy Spirit agreed with my soaring spirit...that brother Frank Bartlemans testimony was the desire of my heart as well...I posted some of his testimony earlier on this thread.

i'm not even sure, I feel comfortable with the word, "Remnant".....I love "The Way", like we used to title ourselves so many centuries ago....all i'm personally asking God for is to send me or let me find 2 to 5 other saints that are burdened and desperate for revival in this district, this 100 mile by 100 mile land in SW Wis, and are willing to join in constant prayer for God to come down in Power.

as far as leaders? God chooses them.....now,a true leader?...he never has to say, "i'm leader"...its the other saints, as swept along by God who tell him.

that's the way I am led to believe....so God bless you Greg, and Frank, I wish you didn't live so far away, I love you both, in His love and my love, neil

(please forgive me, I had to post this again, for latecomers who don't want to "wade" thru 44 posts...my heart sings when I read this, what happened at 312 Azusa Street April/June 1906 in a plain old barnlike former Methodist church....this testimony just thrills my spirit)

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"Brother Seymour was recognized as the nominal leader in charge. But we had no pope or hierarchy. We were “brethren.” We had no human program. The Lord Himself was leading. We had no priest class, nor priest craft. These things have come in later, with the apostatizing of the movement. We did not even have a platform or pulpit in the beginning. All were on a level. The ministers were servants, according to the true meaning of the word. We did not honor men for their advantage, in means or education, but rather for their God-given “gifts” He set the members in the “body.” Now” A wonderful and horrible thing is come to pass in the land. The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and My people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof.” –Jer. 5:30, 31. Also “AS for my people, children are their oppressors (sometimes grown up ones), and women rule over them.”
- Isa 3:12.


Brother Seymour generally sat behind two empty shoeboxes, one on top of the other. He usually kept his head inside the top one during the meeting, in prayer. There was no pride there. The services ran almost continuously. Seeking souls could be found under the power almost any hour, night and day. The place was never closed nor empty. The people came to meet God. He was always there. Hence a continuous meeting. The meeting did not depend on the human leader. God’s presences become more and more wonderful. In that old building, with its low rafters and bare floors, God took strong men and women to pieces, and put them together again, for His glory. It was a tremendous overhauling process. Pride and self-assertion, self-importance and self-esteem, could not survive there. The religious ego preaches its own funeral sermon quickly.


No subjects or sermons were announced ahead of time, and no special speakers for such an hour. No one knew what might be coming, What God would do. All was spontaneous, ordered of the Spirit. We wanted to hear from God, through whoever he might speak. We had no “respect of persons” The rich and educated were the dame as the poor and ignorant, and found a much harder death to die. We only recognized God. All were equal. No flesh might glory in His presence. He could not use the self-only recognized opinionated. Those were Holy Ghost meetings, led of the Lord. It had to start in the poor surroundings, God. All were equal. No flesh might glory in His presence. He could not use the self- to keep out the selfish, human element. All came down in humility together, at His feet. They all looked alike, and had all things in common in that sense at least. The rafters were low, the tall must come down. By the time they got to “Azusa” they were humbled, ready for the blessing. The food was thus placed for the lambs, not for giraffes. All could reach it.


We were delivered right there from ecclesiastical hierarchism and abuse. We wanted God. When we first reached the meeting we avoided as much as possible human contact and greeting. We wanted to meet God first. We got our head under some bench in the corner in prayer, and met men only in the Spirit, knowing them “after the flesh” no more. The meetings started themselves, spontaneously, in testimony, praise and worship. The testimonies were never hurried by a call for “popcorn.” We had no prearranged programmed to be jammed through the time. Our time was the Lord’s. We had real testimonies from fresh heart-experience. Otherwise, the shorter the testimonies, the better. A dozen might be on their feet at one time, trembling under the mighty power of god. We did not have to get our cur from some leader. And we were free from lawlessness. We were shut up to God in prayer in the meetings, our minds on Him. All obeyed God, in meekness and humility. In honor we “preferred one another.” The Lord was liable to burst through any one. We prayed for this continually. Some one would finally get up anointed for the message. All seemed to recognize this and gave way. It might be a child, a woman, or a man. It might be from the back seat, or from the front. It made no difference. We rejoiced that God was working. No one wished to show himself. We thought only of obeying God.


In fact there was an atmosphere of God there that forbade any one but a fool attempting to put himself forward without the real anointing. And such did not last long. The Spirit, from the throne controlled the meetings. Those were truly wonderful days. I often said that I would rather live six months at that time than fifty years of ordinary life. But God is just the same today. Only we have changed.


Some one might be speaking. Suddenly the Spirit would fall upon the congregation. God himself would give the altar call. Men would fall all over the house, like the slain in battle, or rush for the altar en masse, to seek God. The scene often resembled a forest of fallen trees. Such a scene cannot be imitated. I never saw an altar call given in those early days. God himself would call them. And the preacher knew when to quit. When He spoke we all obeyed. It seemed a fearful thing to hinder or grieve the Spirit. The whole place was steeped in prayer, God was in His holy temple. It was for man to keep silent. The shekinah glory rested there. In fact some claim to have seen the glory by night over the building. I do not doubt it. I have stopped more than once within two blocks of the place and prayed for strength before I dared to go on. The presence of the Lord was so real.


Presumptuous men would sometimes come among us. Especially preachers who would try to spread themselves, in self-opinionating. But their effort was short lived. The breath would be taken from them. Their minds would wander, their brains reel. Things would turn black before their eyes. They could not go on. I never saw one get by with it in those days. They were up against God. No one cut them off. We simply prayed. The Holy Spirit did the rest. We wanted the Spirit to control. He wound them up in short order. They were carried out dead, spiritually speaking. They generally bit the dust in humility, going through the process we had all gone through. In other words they died out, came to see themselves in all their weakness, then in childlike humility and confession were taken up of God, transformed through the mighty “baptism” in the Spirit. The “old man” died with all his pride, arrogancy and good works. In my own case I came to abhor myself. I begged the Lord to drop a curtain so close behind me on my past that it would hit my heels. He told me to forget every good deed as though it had never occurred, as soon as it was accomplished anything for Him, lest my good works become a snare to me.


We saw some wonderful things in those days. Even very good men came to abhor themselves in the clearer light of God. The preachers died the hardest. But when God got through with them they gladly turned a new page and chapter. That was one reason they fought so hard. Death is not at all a pleasant experience. And strong men die hard."

Hi HezWelling

Thankyou for your kind comments and encouragment.

_________________
karl rashleigh

Bro Greg you write......

" All I am trying to share is a balance view of the remnant of how I see it in church history and that it always has leadership like other larger groups. Love you brother, not trying to be contentious my friend."

There is no contention bro, at least on my part, I am looking for clarification. Words are important just as accusations are, if voiced, they must be explained. So my question would be, what are you trying to balance? What individual or groups are saying or teaching repudiation of all leadership? We have to be careful not to set up straw men that simply suit our own thoughts. If there is a group or individuals who repudiate all leadership, I for one would certainly like to know that, I personally have never met or even known of any group or individuals who repudiates all leadership............bro Frank