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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What are the Biblical verses that support cessionism?

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 What are the Biblical verses that support cessionism?

If notable Biblical expositors such as John MacArthur maintain that sign gifts are no longer for today. How do they arrive at their position? What Biblical verses do they use to support their view?

This is an honest question with no debate intended. I keep hearing this cry sola scriptura thrown around. So can someone please help me understand the cessionist position.

What scriptures say the sign gifts are no monger in operation? By sign gifts I mean prophesy, tongues, healing, word of knowledge, etc. I really would like to know how MacArthur derives his view.

Bearmaster.

 2013/10/23 16:07
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: What are the Biblical verses that support cessionism?

Here is a statement from a John McArthur affiliated church in London that they adapted from John McArthur's teaching.

I'll let you critique it.


"Cessation of Tongues

The gift of tongues was a divinely bestowed supernatural ability to speak in a human language that had not been learned by the one speaking. According to the Apostle Paul, when believers exercised the gift of tongues in church, they were to speak one at a time, and only two or three were to speak in a given service (1 Cor. 14:27). Furthermore, when tongues were spoken in the church, they were to be interpreted by someone with the gift of interpretation so that the others might be edified by the God-given message (1 Cor. 14:5, 13, 27). In this way, tongues did not serve as a private prayer language, but rather—like all spiritual gifts—as a means by which one might serve and edify the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:7; 1 Pet. 4:10).

Tongues"Will Cease"

In 1 Corinthians 13:8 Paul made an interesting, almost startling, statement: “Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.” In the expression “love never fails,” the Greek word translated “fails” means “to decay” or “to be abolished.” Paul was not saying that love is invincible or that it cannot be rejected. He was saying that love is eternal—that it will be applicable forever and will never be passé. Tongues, however, “will cease.” The Greek verb used in 1 Corinthians 13:8 means “to cease permanently,” and implies that when tongues ceased, they would never start up again. Here is the question that this passage poses for the contemporary charismatic movement: if tongues were supposed to cease, has that already happened, or is it yet future? Charismatic believers insist that none of the gifts have ceased yet, so the cessation of tongues is yet future. Most non-charismatics insist that tongues have already ceased, passing away with the apostolic age. Who is right?

It should be noted that 1 Corinthians 13:8 itself does not say when tongues were to cease. Although 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 teaches that prophecy and knowledge will cease when the “perfect” (i.e., the eternal state) comes, the language of the passage—particularly the middle voice of the Greek verb translated “will cease”—puts tongues in a category apart from these gifts. Paul writes that while prophecy and knowledge will be “done away” (passive voice) by “the perfect,” the gift of tongues “will cease” in and of itself (middle voice) prior to the time that “the perfect” arrives. When did this cessation of tongues take place? The evidence of Scripture and history indicate that tongues ceased in the apostolic age.

Evidence from Scripture

What biblical or theological evidence is there that tongues have ceased? First, the gift of tongues was a miraculous, revelatory gift, and the age of miracles and revelation ended with the apostles. The last recorded miracles in the New Testament occurred around A.D. 58, with the healings on the island of Malta (Acts 28:7- 10). From A.D. 58 to 96, when John finished the book of Revelation, no miracle is recorded. Miracle gifts like tongues and healing are mentioned only in 1 Corinthians, an early epistle. Two later epistles, Ephesians and Romans, both discuss gifts of the Spirit at length—but no mention is made of the miraculous gifts. By that time miracles were already looked on as something in the past (Heb. 2:3-4). Apostolic authority and the apostolic message needed no further confirmation. Before the first century ended, the entire New Testament had been written and was circulating through the churches.

The revelatory gifts had ceased to serve any purpose. And when the apostolic age ended with the death of the Apostle John, the signs that identified the apostles had already become moot (cf. 2 Cor. 12:12).

Second, tongues were intended as a sign to unbelieving Israel (1 Cor. 14:21-22; cf. Is. 28:11-12). They signified that God had begun a new work that encompassed the Gentiles. The Lord would now speak to all nations in all languages. The barriers were down. And so the gift of languages symbolized not only the curse of God on a disobedient nation, but also the blessing of God on the whole world.

Tongues were therefore a sign of transition between the Old and New Covenants. With the establishment of the church, a new day had dawned for the people of God. God would speak in all languages. But once the period of transition was past, the sign was no longer necessary.

Third, the gift of tongues was inferior to other gifts. It was given primarily as a sign (1 Cor. 14:22) and was also easily misused to edify self (1 Cor. 14:4). The church meets for the edification of the body, not self-gratification or personal experience-seeking. Therefore, tongues had limited usefulness in the church, and so it was never intended to be a permanent gift."
Adapted from John MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992).

Source: Gracelife London Church.

It continues with evidence from history, but I thought this was enough for now.


_________________
Dave

 2013/10/23 16:39Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon

 Re:

Heydave,

I believe you might have misunderstood Bear's question.
He was looking for evidences in the bible to justify the cessationist's view rather than evidences of the cessationist's ignorance of both the bible and church history.


_________________
Fifi

 2013/10/23 18:49Profile









 Re:

The Genuine Gift of Tongues

Let's begin with a definition. The word "tongue" in the Bible simply means "a language."
God gives all the gifts of the Spirit to fill a practical need. What was the need for tongues?
Jesus told His followers, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19. This command posed a problem. How could the apostles go out preaching to all the world when they spoke only one or two languages? After all, Jesus' disciples were very bright, even though most of them were not formally educated. In order to fulfill the great commission, He promised to give them a unique gift from the Holy Spirit. It was a miraculous, supernatural ability to speak foreign languages they had not formerly studied or known for the purpose of spreading the Gospel.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; ... they shall speak with new tongues." Mark 16:17.
The fact that Jesus said these new tongues, or languages, would be a "sign" indicates that the ability to speak them would not come as the result of normal linguistic study. Rather, it would be an instantaneous gift to fluently preach in a previously unfamiliar language.
There are only three actual examples of speaking in tongues recorded in the Bible (Acts chapters 2, 10, and 19). If we look at these three cases, we should find a clearer picture of this controversial gift.

"When the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven [divided] tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:1-4.
Fire is a symbol for power. God sent this gift in the form of tongues of fire so they would know that He would empower their feeble tongues in the same way He strengthened Moses to go before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:10-12) and touched Isaiah's lips with a coal from the heavenly altar (Isaiah 6:6, 7).
Why did the Lord wait until Pentecost to bestow this gift? Acts 2:5-11 sets the scene: "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? ... We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."

The day of Pentecost was a Jewish holy day that fell 50 days after Passover. Devoted Israelites would come from all over the Roman empire to worship in Jerusalem. God chose this timely opportunity to bestow this gift of tongues upon the disciples so they could preach to the visiting Jews in their native languages. At least 15 different language groups were represented in the crowd that day (Acts 2:9-11)! As a result, thousands of these visitors were converted. Then, after Pentecost, they in turn carried their new faith home to their respective countries.
From this example it should be very clear that the gift of tongues was given to communicate the gospel in different existing languages of the world.

Some have mistakenly suggested that the miracle on Pentecost was a gift to hear and understand different languages. It was not a gift of hearing given to the listeners, but rather a gift of the Spirit given to enable the believers to speak (Acts 2:4). It is not called the gift of ears for the listeners, but the gift of tongues for the speakers. Furthermore, the sign was not ears of fire on the listeners, but tongues of fire on the ones preaching.
It is also sometimes suggested that the gift of tongues is a "heavenly language" understood only by God or those with the gift of interpretation. The Bible is clear in Acts chapter 2 that both the disciples and those listening understood what was being preached-"the wonderful works of God." Verse 11.

Let's look now at the second example when Peter preached to Cornelius and his household.
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." Acts 10:44-46.
Acts 10:1 tells us that Cornelius was Italian, while Peter was a Jew and spoke Aramaic. History also tells us that the servants in a Roman home could be from anywhere in the world. Because there were obvious language barriers at this meeting, Peter likely began to preach through an interpreter. But when the Holy Ghost fell upon Cornelius and his household, the Jews with Peter could understand the Gentiles speaking in languages other than their native tongues. The record is that the Jews heard them "magnify God" in these languages. When later reporting this experience to the church leaders, Peter said, "The Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning." Acts 11:15, emphasis added.

Peter here plainly tells us that Cornelius and his family received the same gift of tongues in the same way the disciples did on the day of Pentecost. In other words, they spoke languages they had not formerly known in a way that could be understood.
The third and final example of speaking in tongues is when Paul preached to 12 Ephesian disciples. Acts 19:6 records, "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
Paul was the most educated and widely traveled of the apostles, and he spoke many languages (1 Corinthians 14:1. When the Holy Spirit came upon these 12 Ephesian men, Paul recognized that they were prophesying, or preaching, in new languages. Most likely they spoke in languages common throughout the Roman Empire, since that would be practical for spreading the Gospel. Luke does not say that they received a form of tongues different from the first two examples, so we must assume that it was the same type of gift given at Pentecost.

You'll find that the only times the gift of tongues was associated with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is when people from more than one language group were gathered together, thus creating communication barriers.
Notice that in Acts chapter 4 you have a repeat of the experience described in chapter 2. The place was shaken and they were filled with the Holy Spirit, but because there were no foreigners present, the gift of tongues was absent. Acts 4:31 says, "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

The purpose for the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not to mutter or babble unintelligible sounds, but rather to have power for preaching. This is why Jesus said, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8.

The Message to Corinth
Of the 14 New Testament books written by Paul, 1 Corinthians is the only one in which he deals with the subject of tongues. The Corinthian church obviously had a specific, temporary problem because Paul's second letter to Corinth never even mentions tongues.
The ancient city of Corinth was famous for its two international seaports. Because the Corinthian church was a melting pot of many different nationalities, its services often became chaotic and confusing. Evidently some of the members would pray, testify, or preach in languages unknown to the others present. This is why Paul commanded that if they spoke in a tongue unknown to the majority, they should remain silent unless there was someone there to interpret or translate (1 Corinthians 14:2. In other words, it's not polite to speak in a language that your audience cannot understand. Listen to these plain statements from the apostle: "Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. ... Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. ... If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." 1 Corinthians 14:6-9, 19, 27, 28.

It is truly amazing that some people take this passage and use it as an excuse to babble during services! The consistent message of Paul throughout Scripture is the very opposite. In 1 Timothy 6:20, he specifically mentions "avoiding profane and vain babblings." And in 2 Timothy 2:16, Paul repeats that counsel: "But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness." In other words, the very purpose for the gift of speech is to communicate your thoughts. If those present do not understand your communication, then keep silent.

Heavenly Prayer Language?

Many charismatic friends would agree that the tongues spoken in the book of Acts were normal languages of the world. But they quickly add that there is a second gift-a heavenly prayer language. This gift, they say, is to express the Spirit's "groanings which cannot be uttered." Romans 8:26. The purpose, they say, is so the devil cannot understand our prayers. But nowhere are we taught to hide our prayers from the devil. He trembles when he hears Christians pray!
This doctrine of a prayer language is based mainly upon 1 Corinthians 14:14, where Paul says, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

They interpret this to mean that when Paul prayed in the Spirit, he used a "heavenly tongue" and did not himself know what he was praying. This theory raises an important question. How would the supplicant ever know if his prayer was answered?
So what is Paul really saying in 1 Corinthians 14:14? The problem in understanding this verse comes largely from the cumbersome translation. Please allow me to rephrase the verse in modern English: "If I pray in a language those around me do not know, I might be praying with the Spirit, but my thoughts would be unfruitful for those listening." Paul is adamant that if we pray out loud, we should either pray so others around us can understand or else keep quiet! Notice the next few verses: "What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?" 1 Corinthians 14:15,16.

According to this text, who has the problem with understanding? It is the listener and not the speaker as is commonly taught. If you have ever prayed with someone who is offering a prayer in a language unknown to you, then you know what Paul meant when he said it is difficult for you to say "Amen" (meaning "so be it") at the end of the prayer. Without an interpreter, you have no idea to what you are assenting. You may have just asked a blessing on the devil as far as you can tell!

It is obvious from the context of 1 Corinthians 14 that the purpose of speaking in tongues, or foreign languages, is to communicate the gospel and thereby edify the church. If the listeners do not understand the spoken language they cannot be edified. Consequently, if there is no interpreter, the speaker is simply speaking into the air and the only ones present who know what is being said are God and himself. This is the clear meaning of the often-misquoted verse 2. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

Paul emphasizes again that the languages spoken need to be understood by the hearers or else the one who wants to share the mysteries of the gospel needs to sit quietly in meditation between himself and God. "So likewise ye; except ye utter by tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." Verses 9, 28. Clearly, the entire purpose of tongues is to cross language barriers and communicate the gospel!
Some have asked, "Didn't Paul say he spoke with the tongues of angels?"

No. Paul said, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels ..." 1 Corinthians 13:1, emphasis added. If you read this verse in its context, you will see that the word "though" means "even if." For example, Paul also said in verse 2, "Though I have all faith ..." He did not have all faith. And verse 3 adds, "Though I give my body to be burned ..." Paul was beheaded, not burned. So we can see that Paul here used the word "though" to mean "even if."

Right Priorities

I believe that all the gifts of the Spirit, including the true gift of tongues, are needed and available to the church today. But the Scriptures teach that some of the gifts are more important than others and that we should focus on the most important ones. "But covet earnestly the best gifts." 1 Corinthians 12:31.
In fact, when the Bible lists spiritual gifts, tongues is usually found at the bottom of the list. "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." 1 Corinthians 12:28. "Greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues." 1 Corinthians 14:5.
Yet some charismatic preachers have turned the list upside down and made the gift of tongues the primary emphasis of their preaching. They would have us think that a Christian who does not speak in tongues is a second-class citizen. But Paul makes it clear that different gifts are given to different people, and no one is expected to have all the gifts. He asks in 1 Corinthians 12:29, 30: "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" The answer is obviously NO!

The Bible says, "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. But these same preachers would have us believe that the fruit of the Spirit is tongues or that every person who is filled with the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues. Yet out of more than 50 examples in the Bible where God filled His people with the Spirit, only three times is tongues connected with the experience.

Furtheremore, Jesus is our example. He was filled with the Holy Spirit, yet He never spoke in tongues. John the Baptist was "filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb" (Luke 1:15), but there is no record that he spoke in tongues, either.
Of the 27 books in the New Testament, only three make any reference at all to the gift of tongues. There are about 39 Bible authors. Of the 39, only three-Luke, Paul, and Mark-mention the subject of tongues. In other words, we should put the emphasis where God puts the emphasis.

Creative Counterfeit

The genuine gift of tongues is a powerful tool for the proclamation of the gospel. But remember, the devil has a counterfeit for every truth of God.
Glossolalia (glô´se-lâ'lê-a) is the word often used to describe the popular experience found in most charismatic churches. It is defined in the American Heritage Dictionary as: "fabricated and non-meaningful speech, especially such speech associated with a trance state or certain schizophrenic syndromes."

Contrast that with the same dictionary's definition for a language: "The use by human beings of voice sounds, and often written symbols representing these sounds, in organized combinations and patterns in order to express and communicate thoughts and feelings."
By any definition, the disjointed sounds of glossolalia are not a language.

Baptized Paganism

The modern manifestation of tongues finds its roots not in the Bible, but rather in ancient pagan spiritualistic rituals. In the sixth century B.C., the Oracle of Delphi was housed in a temple built near the foot of Mt. Parnassus. Delphi was also sacred to Dionysus, the god associated with wine, fertility, and sensual dance, and to the nine Muses, patron goddesses of music.
While exhilarating music was played, the chief priestess named Pythia would breathe intoxicating vapors, go into a frenzied trance, and then begin jabbering. The weird sounds the priestess muttered were then interpreted by a priest, who usually spoke in verse. Her utterances were regarded as the words of Apollo, but the messages were so ambiguous that they could seldom be proven wrong.1

The Native Americans in New Mexico use a similar ritual.The Indians would eat the hallucinogenic peyote, then sit in a circle and chant and pound drums for hours. Before long, several were spasmodically muttering as they experienced their tormenting visions. Today the charismatic churches are by far the most popular among the Native Americans because it is such an easy and natural transition from their old religions.
Among many heathen African tribes, in order to invoke the blessing of their gods, the people would sacrifice a chicken or goat and then dance around a fire for long hours, chanting songs to the hypnotic rhythm of a pounding drum. Eventually some of the people would become possessed by their gods and begin speaking the eerie languages of the spirit world. Then the local witch doctor or priest would translate the messages. This ritual is still practiced today among the Voodoo Catholics in the West Indies.
This pagan practice first found its way into the North American Christian churches in the early 1800s.

Many of the African slaves who were brought to America and forced to accept Christianity were unable to read the Bible for themselves. Even though they came from a variety of tribes in Africa, one practice most tribes held in common was the "Spirit Dances" with the "spirit-possessed" person muttering.
The slaves mistakenly associated this with the Christian "gift of tongues" and began to incorporate a modified version into their meetings. These frantic services, which were accompanied by heavy rhythmic music, began to spread at first only in the South and the participants were mocked by the mainline denominations as "Holy Rollers." Some even went so far as to grab venomous serpents during their possessed trances as a means of proving that they had the "spirit." (This was a misuse of Mark 16:18, which says, "They shall take up serpents," in reference to the time Paul was accidentally bitten by a serpent but was unharmed by the venom. See Acts 28:3-6.) For people to hunt down and pick up deadly snakes in order to prove that they have the Holy Spirit is, in reality, tempting God!

The national expansion of the Pentecostal movement among Caucasians began in Los Angeles at the Apostolic Faith Gospel Mission on Azusa Street in 1906. The leader was a black former holiness preacher named William Seymour. From there, leaders continued to refine the doctrines and make them more attractive and palatable to other mainline Christians.

"Then in about 1960 the charismatic movement began attracting followers within traditional denominations. From then it continued to have explosive growth until now there are several million charismatics in Protestant and Catholic churches throughout the world."2
It is important to note the prominent role music plays in all the pagan religions that practice glossolalia. This counterfeit gift of tongues first found its foothold in mainline churches through "baptized" pagan music and worship styles. The dominant, repetitious rhythms and syncopated beat disarm the higher reasoning powers and put the subconscious mind in a hypnotic state. In this vulnerable condition, the spirit of ecstatic utterance finds easy access.

Now the devil is using this counterfeit gift of tongues, like a Trojan horse, to introduce pagan worship styles into Christian churches with a frightening degree of success. Satan wants to shift the attention of Christians from faith to feeling. Some of these charismatic churches go so far as to say that the Bible is the old letter, and that messages which come through tongues are fresh revelations of the Spirit and therefore more dependable.
So now the stage is set for Satan's final performance!

How God's Spirit Affects Us

The concept that a person who is "slain in the spirit" should fall to the ground and wallow and mutter is an insult to the Holy Ghost. The reason God gives us His Spirit is to restore in us His image-not to rob us of all dignity and self control!
On mount Carmel, the pagan prophets of Baal jumped on the altar and shouted and moaned. They prophesied and cut themselves. By contrast, Elijah quietly knelt and prayed a simple prayer(1 Kings 18:17-46).
"For God is not the author of confusion." 1 Corinthians 14:33. If God is not responsible, then who is?
The idea that we lose control when we receive the Spirit is not consistent with Scripture. "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." 1 Corinthians 14:32.
Here's another case in point. After Jesus saved a berserk, demon-possessed man by the sea, the healed man was seen "sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind." Luke 8:35.
The invitation of God is "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 1:18. He wants us to use our heads.
Some of you reading this study are no doubt thinking: "How dare you say these things? I have spoken in tongues for years and know it is from God!"
As Christians, we should never base our conclusions on how we feel. After all, the devil can certainly make us feel good. Rather, we must base our beliefs upon the sure Word of God.

A true Christian should be willing to surrender every cherished view and practice on the altar of God's will and forsake any practice that may be questionable-no matter how popular, accepted, or beloved among other Christians. There are some things that are highly esteemed among men but are an abomination in the sight of God (Luke 16:15).

Babbling in Babylon

Why is understanding the subject of tongues so essential for us today? I believe the modern charismatic movement was foretold in Bible prophecy.
Revelation chapter 18 verses 2 and 4 state: "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen. ... And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

We must remember that one of the principal characteristics of ancient Babylon at the tower of Babel was a confusion of tongues (Genesis 11:7-9). Revelation is telling us that in the last days, God's people are to be called out of Babylon and its confusing counterfeit religious systems.
"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." Revelation 16:13. The phrase "out of the mouth" represents speech, and please don't miss the fact that a frog's main weapon is its tongue. Unclean tongues? Perhaps God is trying to tell us something.

Remember that the confusion of tongues at Babel was not a blessing of the Spirit, but rather a curse for their rebellion. In fact, we get our modern word "babbling" from the story of ancient Babel. At Pentecost, the curse of Babel was reversed so others might understand the gospel.
Given to the Obedient
I have met people who told me they've had the baptism of the Holy Spirit because they spoke in tongues; yet they held a cigarette in one hand and a can of beer in the other. Now let's get something straight. There are some basic requirements for receiving this most precious gift of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth." John 14:15, 16, 17.
"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Acts 5:32, emphasis added.

A few years ago several famous TV evangelists fell by the way. They all claimed to be filled with the Holy Spirit and have the gift of tongues. But they were living in gross immoral disobedience. They would speak in tongues on TV, then leave the studio to live a compromising life. Something just wasn't right. These men also caused me to wonder, "If this is the genuine gift of tongues, then why do these charismatic evangelists need an army of interpreters to translate for them when they preach overseas?"

Why does God give the Spirit? "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me." Acts 1:8. God does not give us the Spirit to babble, but as power for witnessing!
How can we receive the genuine gift of the Holy Spirit? Totally submit to God, be willing to forgive others, obey Him, and ask. Luke 11:13 says, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

1The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia and Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, under the entry "Delphi."
2Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, under the entry "Pentecostals

 2013/10/23 19:09
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1035
Oregon

 A W Tozer on the Gifts of the Spirit.

"For a generation certain evangelical teachers have told us that the gifts of the Spirit ceased at the death of the apostles or at the completion of the New Testament. This, of course, is a doctrine without a syllable of Biblical authority back of it. The result of this erroneous teaching is that spiritually gifted persons are ominously few among us. This frightening hour calls aloud for men with the gift of prophetic insight. Instead we have men who conduct surveys, polls and panel discussions. We need men with the gift of knowledge. In their place we have men with scholarship---nothing more. Thus, we may be preparing ourselves for the tragic hour when God may set us aside as so-called evangelicals and raise up another movement to keep New Testament Christianity alive in the earth.

The truth of the matter is that the Scriptures plainly imply the imperative of possessing the gifts of the Spirit. But I must also add a word of caution. The various spiritual gifts are not equally valuable, as Paul so carefully explains. Certain brethren have magnified one gift out of seventeen out of all proportion. Among these brethren there have been and are many godly souls, but the general moral results of this teaching have nevertheless not been good. In practice it has resulted in much shameless exhibitionism, a tendency to depend upon experiences instead of upon Christ and often a lack of ability to distinguish the works of the flesh from the operations of the Spirit. Those who deny that the gifts are for us today and those who insist upon making a hobby of one gift are both wrong, and we are all suffering the consequences of their error."
-A.W. Tozer


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Fifi

 2013/10/23 19:32Profile
Sidewalk
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Posts: 719
San Diego

 Re: We are called to be witnesses, not theologians.

One of the most basic realties of genuine Christianity is the fact that God reveals Himself to repentant believers. Repentant believers get things from God, deep inside, and from His treasure house of gifts. Tongues are one of those gifts and in many forms- sometimes a full on message from one who does not know the language, sometimes a prayer language to fill in the gaps in one's own language. When love is the operating currency, a tongue brought in a church service can be a blessing and a dramatic evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence to unbelievers. An interpretation is a proper complement to such an outpouring, but the world doesn't stop spinning if no interpretation follows. Men prophesy in proportion to faith, and sometimes there's not much there. Love can cover these things, and help people learn to operate in the Spirit more efficiently.

To argue whether tongues ceased with the passing of those first apostles is not only foolish, but a searing insult to God and the ground He laid for the building of the church and body of His Son.

HE IS NOT DONE! I would speculate that the root problems that have plagued the church over the centuries are failures to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in love and the gifts. We have been obsessed with the forms of religion while denying the power. We don't have the patience to let the fruit of the Spirit mature, and we don't have enough confidence in the gifts to let God use them in the ministries He gives us.

Do you speak in tongues? Then by all means pray fervently in tongues and in your spoken language!

Do you not speak in tongues? Probably a hundred reasons why not, but near the top is the person who told you tongues were not for today and you took the authority in that charge to overwrite Paul's scriptural admonition that all should speak in tongues! (1 Cor. 14:5)

The evidence I see in Paul's larger teaching in that chapter indicates that most of the new believers were delighted with the gift of tongues and were using the gift without much understanding of its place in their worship. Paul was able to teach, because he was full of the same gift and had had time to learn some things about it. It is very clear in the passage that he believed the gift in the Corinthians was genuine and good, he gave it a resounding approval.

Of course the gifts will all cease- when the perfect comes! When we are conformed perfectly to the image of Christ, none of the tools now in place for building the church will be necessary! When any house is built tools are everywhere- hammers and saws, sprayers, scaffolding, cement forms, all there to bring the house to completion.

And once it is complete, all are removed.

Tongues are a daily part of my prayer language, have been since a Holy Spirit infilling I had in 1964. I have given tongues in church, given interpretations following. Probably about 98% me and 2% God, but I'll take that 2% to the heavenly bank any day!

And like Paul, I prefer to bring God's word in an understandable language to my hearers!

Last point- nobody speaks a tongue or a prophecy perfect the first time. Many refuse to go through the humiliation of the learning curve, and fear they may make some spiritual mistake.

Pshaw! That's just pride. Get over it and get on with learning to minister before the Lord in the Spirit and in truth. Making a mistake and humbly asking forgiveness will get you into effective ministry as quick as anything.

Paul wrote 1Cor. 13 not about love, but about ministering in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He just knew that unless the gifts were bathed in love, disaster would be the result.

Have we not proved him so, so right??




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Tom Cameron

 2013/10/24 0:56Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1953


  All gifts will cease

All gifts will cease when a person dies and goes to heaven. There is no need to Prophesy in Heaven because nothing is hidden there to be revealed by Prophets. No need to connect to God in tongues because God himself is present directly in front of us in Heaven. But Love lives for ever, if one loves Jesus today on earth, he will continue loving him even in Heaven. That is why love is a greater than any gift.

I have evidence of brother speaking in tongue during a meeting and another brother interpreting it to perfection.

The reason some well known men of God come to such erroneous conclusion is because they see men blaspheme in the name of Gifts. For example I saw a well known TV preacher driving out a demon from a women in a TV program, he gave a mike to the demon possessed women while he was driving the demon out. It took some 15 mins of conversation between them before the women is freed. Absolute drama, Jesus never let demons speak when he drove them out, forget about giving a mike to them. When people see such extremes, they go to other extreme of denouncing Gifts. That is what lead to such Theologies, all the verses that are used to back them are just covers given to their erroneous views.


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Sreeram

 2013/10/24 2:25Profile









 Re: All gifts will cease

Quote:
All gifts will cease when a person dies and goes to heaven.



The verse does not say that two of the gifts - prophesy and knowledge will cease when the perfect comes (entire sanctification) - tongues being a different case as explained by the use of a different Greek verb as explained previously.

The verse says that the perfect coming is likened to when a child becomes an adult and what is understood incompletely becomes fully understood, and it is this incompleteness which is 'done away' with as it was less than perfect previously. This principle concerns knowledge and prophecy and not the other gifts (tongues being a special case). When a man reaches his full stature in Christ in the baptism of holiness, he has the mind of Christ and also he can speak the mind of Christ into a situation which is the meaning of prophecy and this will invariably concern preaching the need to repent in carnal believers. These two gifts find their completeness when a man 'sees through the veil' of sin when he has been delivered from its power and presence.

These things are for this life not the next.



 2013/10/24 4:38
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Krautfrau (Brenda),

Your detailed explanation of the gift of tongues is very helpful in understanding the thinking behind rejecting what is commonly practised today as the 'gift of tongues'. I don't agree with every thing said, but there are some good points and I do think that the majority of what we see and hear is not the genuine gift of tongues.
Is this article yours or from some other source?

However your post supports the view that all the gifts have NOT ceased (all be it not as practised by the charismatics). Bearmaster was asking for views and justification of cessationism.

On your second post I would disagree that the 'perfect' spoken of in 1 Corinthians 13 is 'entire sanctification'.
It amazes me that people interpret this 'perfect as either 'the bible' and now 'entire sanctification'. If we put down our personal prejudices and just look at the context we cam see the context Paul is referring to is 'now ' and 'then'(v.12). 'Then' we will see Christ 'face to face'. 'Now' we don't. When is 'then' that we will see Christ face to face? When we go to be with him.


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Dave

 2013/10/24 5:09Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Sidewalk, I have serious concern over this statement of yours...
"Tongues are a daily part of my prayer language, have been since a Holy Spirit infilling I had in 1964. I have given tongues in church, given interpretations following. Probably about 98% me and 2% God, but I'll take that 2% to the heavenly bank any day!"

Do you not think it a serious thing that you would speak words in the church that are 98% error or at best 98% claiming to be of God when it is not? False prophets and teachers will come under serious judgement! I would rather keep quiet and say nothing than mis-represent God. 98% God and 2% man may be acceptable.


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Dave

 2013/10/24 5:20Profile





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