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dann
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 239
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

 Re: Questions for those opposing holiness

First, I believe that the new covenant promises freedom from sin's dominion - that as we humble ourselves, God gives us grace - and in grace we are delivered from sin's rule in our life. I believe that this deliverance is experienced according to faith - that is, the greater the faith, the greater the deliverance from sin's rule.

So I am not opposed to holiness.

I do however wonder at your second question - "How much sin can a man commit and still go to Heaven?"

The answer would depend on how one was justified, and whether one were justified or not.

When some religions teach that a man is justified by faith through grace, they really mean that through faith a man receives grace to be personally righteous - and that their own (grace infused) righteousness is what actually saves them.

In this system, "the righteousness of Christ" is interpretted as "my own (experiential) righteousness which I obtained through faith."

Under this system then, the answer would be no sin - that is, even one sin would thrust the person out of righteousness, and back into the ranks of the damned.

Other systems teach that the believer is justified by Jesus Christ's own personal righteousness accounted to them when they exercise saving faith in Christ. That whatever personal holiness they possess or fail to possess does not in any way affect their status as God's child.

In this scenario, the purpose of holiness is not to justify the believer - since Christ has justified the believer already - rather holiness is the natural condition of a heart in fellowship with God. If we love Christ, we will want to fellowship with Christ - and light has no fellowship with darkness - so we will go about trying to be holy - and fail, because it cannot be done in the flesh. Eventually, if we are serious enough, we will seek God with all our heart - and we will find him. The seeking process isn't just reading the bible - it is ascending the holy hill - and to do that one must have clean hands. Eventually the believer figures it out - he has to truly repent, but is unable to do so in his own power - so he begins to turn to Christ in faith to be delivered from sin's rule. As he continues to seek, knock, and ask - he progresses towards his goal - and eventually, if he faints not, he enters into that promised rest.

That being the case, no amount of sin would disqualify him from heaven - but the least amount of sin would disqualify him from fellowship with Christ.

The Spirit - in this second model, was forshadowed by the shekinah of glory in the wilderness that led the Israelites to the promised land. The Spirit convicts and moves the believer to pursue rest. Not every believer finds that rest - but every believer is saved.

So I wonder in which way you meant it - that is, do you suppose that a person is justified by personal righteousness or by a judicial declaration by God?

Dan
/\/
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_________________
Daniel van de Laar

 2005/3/23 14:40Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: reading Bible

Quote:
The pharisees knew the scriptures better than anyone else in their time but Christ referred to them as vipers and had no good things to say about them. One can know the bible back and forth and be just like the pharisees, lost. Of all the people they should have known Christ when they saw Him come. The spirit in which they learned the scriptures was one of self-glorification rather than God-glorification and we must not fall into this trap lest we lose our souls. The words of the bible have power but only when we seek the source of their power, the spirit of God. Without that the bible means nothing. The bible is like a lightbulb, if it is not plugged into the power source it can give off no light.



Ironman-
this is the best thing I've read in a while! Thank you for putting that into perspective.


I also have questions about what we consider "sin" and how we can be "perfect".

I mean, are we to say that we are never going to be angry at our brother or friend, are we never going to have hidden pride in our hearts that comes out in some hideous form (unbeknownst to us until it is too late).

Maybe I am alone here, but I have to admit that I know I sin EVERYDAY.

I don't mean the obvious sins that i used to do or that others do- but my heart is still full of sinfullness that I don't even know is there.

Am I to say that because I woke up in a bad mood this morning and yelled at my kids to hurry up and eat their breakfast- I am not going to heaven?

Or because I thought myself better than someone else, more holy than another (when I am not really at all) and just realized it- that it was PRIDE in my heart making me believe that- that I am not going to heaven.

No one is going to "act" perfect. No one is capable of having absolutely no fault.

I know that as we live in Him, that we can overcome more and more as our life goes on. The more we live in Him and not in our flesh, then yes, we can live more and more towards His perfectness.

Can anyone say that they never have a bad or wrong thought?

can anyone here say that they are free from all pride?

Can anyone here say that they have not gotten angered with someone (not Godly anger) in the past few days?

can anyone say that thy have had self-control in every area of their life today? (food consumption, not being lazy, doing all their work to the best of their ability)?

What about sins of omission? what about the things that we should do and do not do?

hmmmmmmmmm.....

many questions and more just keep coming. i think you could eventually feel like killing yourself jsut trying to keep up with all that you are "supposed to do" and "not supposed to do" and we could spend the rest of lives trying to be perfect and we would live one very miserable life - "centered on yourself"

"what am "I" doing right or wrong? Wouldn't it be better to not focus so much on "self" all the time and give our time to others?

I am all for obedience to the Lord. I am all for overcoming sin (especially habitual sin) I have overcome many things in my own walk with the Lord- thank the Lord!!! And I know He will continue to help me overcome in other areas as well.

But I know that I will not be perfect until the day I see Him face to face.

If we were perfect now, what need would we have of Him?

Anyone can be "moral", anyone can follow a set of rules with or without Christ.


_________________
Chanin

 2005/3/23 15:44Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Chanin,

Quote:
What about sins of omission? what about the things that we should do and do not do?



You also make great points. Understand that I have a great zeal for holiness. But I am under no illusions as to having to stand before God in a 'sinless state.' There are 613 comandments + the teachings of Jesus. If we are talking about 'conscious sin' I would have to say- yes we can walk in freedom from that. But that is a million miles from TRUE holiness. It is merely what God requires.

The Just shall live by faith.


James said that pure religion was to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction AND to keep ourselves unspotted of the world. There are 248 "do's" that the Jews extracted from the Torah beginning in Genesis. The first is "Be fruitful and multiply." Some may say, "Well, I don't want kids!" Then according to the Law of the Jews, they just broke commandment #1. Finney would say you are sinning because you smoke a pipe, the Jews would say that command #1 is to bear children. Most holiness I see represented makes me want to just start running from the people and I am pretty radical by a radical persons standards (I speak as a fool). None of those things save me.

I am never more saved than when I realize my insufficiency before God and "call upon the name of the Lord" for help. The Pharisees looked up to heaven thanking God they were not like those wretched sinners. What said the Lord to them?

The most upset Jesus got on earth, in my opinion, was directed at religious folk who had no mercy. He called them hypocrites! They knew they were not holy and yet they still pretended to be. Have a zeal for 'holiness'? Nay- I would say rather have a zeal to delight in the Lord. Delight thyself in Him! And He will make you as holy as He will.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/3/23 16:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:
We should all read our bibles often, but we should be weary of the spirit in which we do it. Sometimes I read it to get information to prove a point to someone and make myself feel bigger as I'm sure we all have at some point, let's be honest here and not goof off on this. If the purpose of reading the bible is anything short of glorifying God then it is better to leave it alone. I know I'm on a soapbox about the Spirit but this is what God is placed on me heavily to speak on without ceasing until He says to stop.



Excellent point, IRONMAN! So stop doing that, ok!?! :-P

Krispy

 2005/3/23 16:36
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

There is a lie out there that says one can be saved from hell without being saved from sin. There is a lie out there that says one can be saved by believing in Christ, yet never be a disciple. There is a lie that out there that says holiness is optionial...

2 Thes 2:13 ...God has chosen you from the beginning for [u]salvation [b]through[/b] sanctification[/u] by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2005/3/23 16:42Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Here is a [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1683]link[/url] to an article on this site by John Wesley on Christian Perfection.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/3/23 16:52Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

Quote:
I am never more saved than when I realize my insufficiency before God and "call upon the name of the Lord" for help. The Pharisees looked up to heaven thanking God they were not like those wretched sinners. What said the Lord to them?



Amen!

This is what the Lord has shown me as well. When we look at people (ourselves included) when we are in this state of "o, i am not worthy, I am nothing apart from God- only He is Holy and righteous and good beyond compare"-- that is when I see revival!

Personal revival, corporate revival happens from brokeness and repentance and our seeing how He is ALL and we are not.

When I have felt this way, when I have seen others this way- this blesses my soul.

There is a group of men from [url=www.purelifeministries.org]Purelife[/url] who come to our church once a month (they visit 3 other churches the other sundays) but they come all together because they are staying away from home at a facility where they can (by God's grace) overcome their addiction to pornography and lust. They are (for the most part) already christians- but they are broken. They know how unworthy they are and how they NEED HIM.

You should see these guys singing and crying (w/ literal tears)out to God during their worship. You can just feel the air of brokeness about them that brings in the presence of God.

These guys are not perfect, they have much more road to cover, but their hearts are so ready for God to fill them up and to turn them toward the straight and narrow path.

I cannot help but cry the whole time just watching them. You can see the hunger to know Him and to turn from their old ways.

The Lord is near to the brokenhearted. I am glad because that is my state much of the time. :)

In Him, chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2005/3/23 17:04Profile









 Re:

I can tell from all the long posts that this is going to be a long discussion, which I think is a wonderful thing because this is a wonderful topic. My part in it however was simply to put the list of scriptural questions and I'll leave it at that. As you can tell, I started this forum to ask questions and not answer them. I am looking for answers to those questions and hope not to get diverted to other questions. But I don't have all the answers, but I know that the bible does. I encourage us all to study the bible specificly on this topic. I listed a long list of scriptures that touch perfectly on this subject. My advice is that we at least read them all before commenting on this topic. I am learning the wisdom in being quick to listen and slow to speak.

I think it is important that I make one thing clear first:

I am not by any means promoting salvation by works or that a man has the power to save himself through his works. What I am saying is that there is power in the blood of Jesus, there is power in the grace of God. There is more power in them then some believe. Not only does the blood have the power to make you righteous in the sight of God, but it has the power to actually make you righteous. God is able to save a man to the uttermost. This is not salvation by your own righteousness, it is salvation by the righteousness of Christ. The salvation of God does not merely make you look holy on the outside to God, but it is a deep cleansing and change of the inner man. It is cleaning the inside of the cup, not merely the outside. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Being born-again by the Spirit of God is not merely being born-again in the eyes of God, but is actually having your entire life, not merely part of your life changed. Salvation and sanctification go hand in hand. They are married and have never been divorced. That is why the bible says "repent and believe".

 2005/3/23 19:35
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:
I also have questions about what we consider "sin" and how we can be "perfect".

Quote:
I mean, are we to say that we are never going to be angry at our brother or friend, are we never going to have hidden pride in our hearts that comes out in some hideous form (unbeknownst to us until it is too late).



When we make a resolution that "I'm not going to do this any more" we place ourselves under the letter of the law which kills. We should place ourselves under grace which is afforded us by the blood of christ. See we can't under our own power stop ourselves from sinning, think about it, how many resolutions have you or I kept after we made them? The grace of God is sufficient for us, the spirit of God will empower us to do God's work and the more time we spend doing that, the less there is time to sin.

Quote:
Anyone can be "moral", anyone can follow a set of rules with or without Christ


Of course! look at the pharisees they followed all the rules but Christ had nothing good to say about them. We should seek Christ in all things.

Quote:
If we were perfect now, what need would we have of Him?



The perfection is in the spirit. the natureof the flesh is to rebel against God and all that is holy and God seeks us to be perfect in Spirit because He is spirit. The flesh will never be holy and perfect as God wants our spirits to be, which is why He requires us to worship in spirit and truth.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/3/23 20:21Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:
I am not by any means promoting salvation by works or that a man has the power to save himself through his works. What I am saying is that there is power in the blood of Jesus, there is power in the grace of God. There is more power in them then some believe. Not only does the blood have the power to make you righteous in the sight of God, but it has the power to actually make you righteous. God is able to save a man to the uttermost. This is not salvation by your own righteousness, it is salvation by the righteousness of Christ. The salvation of God does not merely make you look holy on the outside to God, but it is a deep cleansing and change of the inner man. It is cleaning the inside of the cup, not merely the outside. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Being born-again by the Spirit of God is not merely being born-again in the eyes of God, but is actually having your entire life, not merely part of your life changed. Salvation and sanctification go hand in hand. They are married and have never been divorced. That is why the bible says "repent and believe".



There indeed is all power in that blood for through it we are saved and we can know God in an unprecedented way.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/3/23 20:23Profile





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