| Poster | Thread | Smokey
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Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| | Forgiven? | | Could someone give me a little insight on the following scripture?
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
If the lord of this man forgave him his debt in verse 18:27, how can he have him thrown in jail till "he should pay all that was due unto him" in verse 18:34?
Blessings Greg
P.S. Sorry, should be posted under General Topics
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Greg
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|  2011/12/29 2:01 | Profile | Lysa
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| | Re: Forgiven? | | Quote:
Smokey wrote:
If the lord of this man forgave him his debt in verse 18:27, how can he have him thrown in jail till "he should pay all that was due unto him" in verse 18:34?
In my humble opinion, this verse is scripture proof-positive that there is no such thing as once saved always saved. What was forgiven was indeed "UN"forgiven because of "knowledgeable" bad behavior. And the key word is knowledgeable. The man knew he had been forgiven an unpayable, huge debt and refused to pass on the mercy.
God bless you,
Lisa
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Lisa
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| | 2011/12/29 6:23 | Profile | Smokey
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Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| | Re: Forgiven | | That is pretty much how I am begining to understand that verse. " Lest you repent" is a very common warning in scripture.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Anyone else with an insight? Blessings Greg
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Greg
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| | 2011/12/29 9:18 | Profile |
| | More than forgivness - we are NEW CREATIONS! | | I used to see this parable the way you do now. In fact I ruined my relationship with my sister many years ago because of my misunderstanding of this parable.
Christ was talking about the law under the Old Covenant. Under the law forgiveness was possible but sin was only covered temporally. There was no change of heart provided for those who lived under this Covenant.
All the people under the Old Covenant did not have Christ living inside of them. They did not have a new heart. They did not have the fullness of the Holy Spirit. They were NOT born again. They really were not Christians.
This parable has nothing to do with Eternal Security in any way whatsoever.
Under the New Covenant, Christ removed all of our sins. They are now totally gone not just covered. We were given a new Heart and a New Spirit. We now have Christ's Life inside of us. Do not forget that the problem of mankind's sinful corruption was so bad and thorough that even God, Himself could not repair us. There was nothing God could do with that sinful nature, no touching up, no revising, no improving it and no adding to it could ever make it acceptable in His sight. Our sinful nature was entirely hostile to him and we were His actual enemy. We were so corrupt, so wicked and evil that the only thing God could to do with our sinful nature was to crucify it with Christ. The only possible cure for your old life was death.
The Good News is that God has already provided the solution for us in Christ. When you were born again you experienced the reality of what God in Christ had already accomplished before the world was created. We were crucified with Christ and you were buried with Him. Your old sinful nature died and you received God's Divine Nature to replace it. The only solution was to have us crucified with Christ and then He gives us His LIFE. So we died, and we became a New Creation. God made us righteous, holy, clean, purified, and justified. We have no need to become a better person, because God has already made us into a new person.
If you are a Christian then you are actually enjoying your perfect union with Him. He made you a NEW CREATION. You were made 100% righteous and perfect. You are one with Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ. You no longer experience that old life in Adam. You now hove a new pure heart and God's very Divine Nature. You have received His all-sufficient Life in exchange for your old corrupt self. Now the Christian life isn't yours to live.
God does not depend on you to live His Life for Him. He knows that it impossible for you to live His Life, so you experienced His life when you were born again. You do not live for Him - He lives for you. Now you can fully depend on God's Life rather than depending on what you do or do not do. You no longer need to make promises that you can never keep or try to dedicate and rededicate your life to Him. You now have Christ living His Life through you. You no longer have to try to make the Christian life work through your own efforts and resources. It is only made possible by your union with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.
This is all God's gift to us. We can never deserve it or earn it. We seem to take it very lightly that Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" and "I died." But those are powerful statements! So, what died? What was crucified with Christ? Our bodies obviously didn't die. Our souls didn't die, we can still think and feel and we still have make choices. So what died was our spirit that had been born in Adam - our sinful nature. When we were born again, we still had these old bodies and souls, but we now experience that fact that our sinful nature was killed - dead, gone, crucified - forever - and we were raised to life with the righteous nature of Christ.
You have died and were created anew. This is referring to the very essence and core of who we really are. This is the reality of who we really are in our spirits. God didn't take the "old us" and change us into a "better" or "improved" us. Rather, we died and we were re-created as a brand New Creation. We haven't been revived. We've been regenerated and re-created completely! In other words, God didn't take the old us and pump some life into it. Rather, we died and God made us into something completely new - a New Creation. Our old life wasn't changed. It was exchanged with a real life - the very life of Jesus!
Eph. 4:32, "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
Now we are able and can freely forgive because of our union in HIM.
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| | 2011/12/29 10:24 | | roadsign
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| | Re: More than forgivness - we are NEW CREATIONS! | | Quote:
In my humble opinion, this verse is scripture proof-positive that there is no such thing as once saved always saved.
A problem with proof-texting like this is that someone can just as easily find a verse to prove the opposite position. Rather than using the parable to support a predetermined position, we would do well to consider the purpose for this parable. It is about forgiving others and accepting forgiveness. You could say that this servants inability to accept forgiveness extended towards himself is reflected in his inability to forgive others. Really the two are closely related as we are reminded in the Lords Prayer: Forgive us as we forgive others. Because this servant cannot accept forgiveness, he commits his debtors to relentless naked justice. Since this is his standard, it is how he himself is judged. His own debt is bound by the same cold, raw justice till every debt is paid.
We do each other a disservice by making a habit of fitting scripture into theological categories which focus us more on the theoretical than on the real struggles of life. Forgiveness is a huge area where Gods people struggle. The inability to forgive, along with buried anger and resentment can run deep. It might be buried under a mountain of good works, legalistic thinking, addictions, health issues, or some kind of destructive behavior. It may not be apparent to the conscience until times of crisis. It is God who works in his people to bring them to ever deepening levels of forgiveness towards others even as they experience Gods forgiveness towards themselves always in ever-deepening levels.
There are many beautiful testimonies of healing from shameful pasts and from deep wounds through the process of forgiveness. Its a healing journey with God. Apart from this, a persons conscience is enslaved by the rigors of justice without mercy. And such a person merely enslaves others to this same court of justice. There is no habit of forgiveness here.
May God continue his healing work through forgiveness - in us all.
PS: Yes, this thread doesn't belong here in the news forum - but I found it, nevertheless. It's an vital thread topic that is worth keeping alive.
Diane
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| | 2011/12/29 17:23 | Profile | Lysa
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| | Re: Smokey | |
Smokey,
The Lord led me to tell the girls at jail who come to church, its a lifestyle of repentance. You cannot repent once and never expect not to repent again; that is not the gospel of the kingdom of God.
God bless you,
Lisa
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Lisa
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| | 2011/12/29 17:51 | Profile | Lysa
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| | Re: roadsign | |
Quote:
roadsign wrote:
You could say that this servants inability to accept forgiveness extended towards himself is reflected in his inability to forgive others.
You may be somewhat correct on this but only the Lord knows the mans heart and inabilities; but its hard to believe that the wicked servant (as the parable calls him) had a hard time accepting forgiveness but seems rather quite the opposite, he accepted it right out the door where he ran smack dab into someone who owed him pennies compared to what he was forgiven.
Luke 7:47b but he who is forgiven little, loves little." Since this man was forgiven MUCH, then by scripture sake he should have loved much and forgave the pennies that were owed him.
Quote:
roadsign wrote:
There are many beautiful testimonies of healing from shameful pasts and from deep wounds through the process of forgiveness. Its a healing journey with God.
That is all well and good but this parable was not about a process or a healing journey but about his life and how it ended in judgment and (I believe) is a foretaste of things to come if we, who read the word, do not adhere to it.
I may be wrong but I think this is the only place in the Bible where God gives forgiveness and then takes it back based on the wicked servants (he was called this after being forgiven, mind you), after his choices that he was free to make or not to make.
Just my two cents
God bless you Diane,
Lisa
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Lisa
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| | 2011/12/29 19:16 | Profile | Lysa
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| | Re: Diane | |
Diane,
When I respond to people, I try to stick to just a point or maybe two (to keep myself on track); it was not my intention to totally dismiss what you said. Im sorry, even though we may not agree on the reading between the lines of that parable I should have started my post out by saying how I always enjoy reading your responses and agreeing with you that forgiveness is indeed a journey, sometimes a very hard, long journey. Please forgive me.
God bless you,
Lisa
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Lisa
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| | 2011/12/30 10:06 | Profile | roadsign
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| | Re: | | Bless you Lisa! Thank you for your diligence in wrestling with this topic. Ive discovered that one benefit of posting on SI is that someone will always come along to challenge any questionable assertions. In real life you are more apt to get blank stares or the topic gets changed. That does all of us little good.
If you dont mind, I am going to comment on your points:
Quote:
its hard to believe that the wicked servant (as the parable calls him) had a hard time accepting forgiveness but seems rather quite the opposite, he accepted it right out the door where he ran smack dab into someone who owed him pennies compared to what he was forgiven.
Yes indeed! It seems ludicrous that anyone would refuse forgiveness. Yet we see that sad reality in the context of human relationships. To receive forgiveness from another means you must admit the depth of your wrongs, and you know you cannot remedy it. You accept your utter vulnerability before another. You are at their mercy. You cannot save face. You have no capacity to fix the problem. You cant change the past. You cant hide your wrongs from your forgiver. You cant continue to deny. You must accept that your forgiver knows it all!
Often we see where the victim of abuse comes to the point of forgiving her offender (ex her father), but the father is never open to receiving it. His crimes continue to imprison and condemn his conscience, - even as she goes on to walk in her new freedom.
I think it's that way with God's forgiveness to humanity.
Receiving forgiveness runs against the grain of a unrepentant thinking. Thats why works doctrines creep into any and every branch of the church and it will never go away. We dont want to believe we have lost the battle entirely. And we cannot pay the debt. We are not capable. And, above all, weve lost - utterly.
From that perspective then, it would NOT seem unreasonable that the servant rejected forgiveness. That raises another issue which you point out. Is Gods forgiveness only for some? Or is if for the entire world, and only those who RECEIVE it are saved. You could ask: Was Noahs ark just for his family, or were others invited to RECEIVE salvation? Was forgiveness extended to them too? I think it was certainly through Noahs preaching.
Now, I realize that this addresses a major theological divide in protestant Christianity and we are not going to solve it. As I see it now, God sent his Son into the world that whoever believes will have life through receiving forgiveness. Most will reject this offer even if they have a taste of it be that through Gods long suffering mercy to humanity over and over again. The seeds often fall on rocky ground.
Quote:
Luke 7:47b but he who is forgiven little, loves little." Since this man was forgiven MUCH, then by scripture sake he should have loved much and forgave the pennies that were owed him.
Yes he should have! Could we not conclude then that since the servant loved little he would have rejected forgiveness, even though it was extended to him? After all, in actual fact, his debts were not forgiven. And he never embarked on the lifestyle of repentance as you aptly word it. This lifestyle would be marked by a posture of forgiveness and mercy towards others.
Diane
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| | 2011/12/30 11:46 | Profile | Sree
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| | Re: Forgiven? | | Who said God will forgive without any condition? There is a condition, look at Jesus in Sermon on the Mount.
Matthew 6:14,15: If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Again this should not turn us away from our God but turn us towards him, because he has given us Holy Spirit who will remind us and convict our heart when we have an unforgiving thought towards someone.
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| | 2011/12/30 12:03 | Profile |
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