_________________
Diane

_________________
Lisa

Insightful points Sister Lisa :O)

And insightful points as well Sister Diane. :O)

I wonder in particular about the meaning and application of your response Ma’am... In particular, the danger you warn of: that men may try to usurp the place of the Holy Ghost over other believers and then require more than God does.

This is a DEEP topic... and this particular danger is one of a great many that threaten the Christian, as he or she "shoves off" from the "safety" of the doomed land, and sails into the rough waters that lead the Christian to Eternal Life.

Yet sail on he must, come what may.

I too have suffered under those who have demanded more than God does. I have also suffered under those who fail to even mention what God clearly does say to do.

Yet even now, I attend a local church that teaches some standards that aren’t even in the Old Testament, let alone in the New. And they teach against other standards of living that are plainly written in the New Testament for Christians, because those standards go against the recent artificial Hollywood culture we are forced to live in here in the West.

But what do I do? I abide by their standards, so as to not give offense to their consciences. And where I appear to do more than they do, I suffer the little stings that come with doing so. Some will avoid any mention of the difference. Others preach openly and publically against my differing practice. Yet I have learned to love both kinds. As Sister Lisa pointed out so well, I am aware that we are all in different places in our walks, with different experiences, both them and I.

Some may not do what I do, but have more inward grace than I have. - I am humbled, as I submit to and learn from them anyway. Some may do more than I see the Scriptures commanding us to do. - I am humbled, as I submit to their standard for their conscience sake anyway.

Let us be brave then! Let us put aside the doubts and worries and pain of past hurts from our minds. Simple gospel truths have great efficacy, IF we can somehow cast all else beside and simply BELIEVE them.

We may yet cast aside all doubtful things, yes EVEN the doubtful things of others. And at the same time, we can be perfectly FREE in doing so.

Be encouraged dear Sister. Be encouraged in Him all. :O)
Doug

Good morning,..a blessed morning ,

Mary Jane,

As I read / read what you were asking and meditating on this, I was
Remembering a time when I was desperateley trying to make a devideing
line, between what was Right and what was Wrong...( the Lord had already been bringing thing to my attention and bringing about a change ) But I was very dilagent wanting more of what God would have me be / do...in other words...How would the Lord ' judgements be in this / that be...Because , my whole heart wanted to do God' will.
I know,by experience, this is not easy....I was consulting Him in every thing....it is not easy to determine the devideing line.

I know now,that we are are to keep our ear tuned to the Spirit, to be 'led by the Spirit' .

I was very young then, and just starting out with the Lord.
Looking back now, I know that it was like when Paul first started out with the Lord, and he asked 'What would Thou have for me to do,Lord'
I believe Paul continued to ask the Lord this, always...because he realized
He was not ' his own' .That he now belonged to the Lord....and He was now Lord over his life.

I was thinking about this ,....would this be the only way that we too, could stay out of the gray erea ?

Please note, I am not trying to be a ,know-it all ,but this is what happened to me.
Much love,
Elizabeth

Thank you for the insightful replies. You have given me much to consider and pray on. I do look to the Lord for better understanding and pray it will help me with some things I find myself struggling with.

Doug you mentioned that, "Some may not do what I do, but have more inward grace than I have. - I am humbled, as I submit to and learn from them anyway. Some may do more than I see the Scriptures commanding us to do. - I am humbled, as I submit to their standard for their conscience sake anyway."
______________

when you say that "you submit to their standard" what exactly do you mean by that? I just wonder because something has been brought up to me as being sinful and I guess it is one of those areas that one would say is "gray" area.
Do you submit to those around you and what they command even though you feel no personal conviction to do on the matter from the Holy Spirit?

God bless
mj

Elizabeth wrote : 'What would Thou have for me to do,Lord'
I believe Paul continued to ask the Lord this, always...because he realized
He was not ' his own' .That he now belonged to the Lord....and He was now Lord over his life.

I was thinking about this ,....would this be the only way that we too, could stay out of the gray erea ?

Please note, I am not trying to be a ,know-it all ,but this is what happened to me.
Much love,
Elizabeth
___________________

This is probably the best way to handle things. Thank you for sharing with me. I did not feel like you where trying to be a know it all (smile) I appreciate everyone taking the time to help me sort through this and sharing what the Lord has laid on your heart.

God Bless
mj

Dear Sister,

You said:
"when you say that "you submit to their standard" what exactly do you mean by that?"

And:
"Do you submit to those around you and what they command even though you feel no personal conviction to do on the matter from the Holy Spirit?"

Yes, I submit to standards of the Church even though I do not believe they are necessarily biblical. (They are “good” things, nothing bad. They just aren't literally commanded in Scripture.)

While I do submit, my conviction for doing so lies in something else altogether. The practical doctrine I am trying to convey is seen the most clearly in Romans 14. Here Paul says:

“I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.” Romans 14:14


Using the then current issue of clean vs. unclean meats in the early churches, Paul lays out the general principle of how the strong are to walk with the weak.

Paul is “strong”: he knows that the mere partaking of certain kinds of food or drink is not a moral issue in Christ. Yet, he said there existed some in the church, real saved Brothers, who believed otherwise. Their consciences were offended by the practice of eating meat sold by gentiles. They believed it was sinful, and the consequences of deliberate sinning were seen to be very serious in those days:

“But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.” Romans 14:15

“For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.” Romans 14:20


"Destroy not him...", "destroy not the work of God...", Paul warned. This was why it was so important not to offend the weaker brothers in Paul’s mind. They would be lost, perhaps irrevocably. That is why this is so important.

What is the solution then, if we are really willing to love our brothers as our own soul? Simply this, avoid even the doubtful thing, the "gray area" thing, if necessary:

“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.” Romans 14:21-22


Dear MaryJane – Consider the situation you find yourself in: I assume you believe the people telling you something is sin are truly saved. Are you in church fellowship with these people? Would God have you continue with them? Is this particular issue one that they feel would damn you or others who did it? Could some of the people who believe as they do also be offended from Christ (and therefore “fall away”), by your not going along? If the answer is “yes” to all these questions, then you face a similar situation to what Paul faced.

In this way, I myself try to weigh every “conviction” or “standard” of others by the final Standard: Is it biblical? If it is, I want to do it.

If it isn’t, I begin asking myself the questions I asked you above. The Spirit and my conscience both then bare witness as to what I need to do in each case.

“We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.” Romans 15:1


Just some thoughts regarding applying this early Christian practice of maintaining peace and unity in the churches.

In any and all cases, be guided by the Lord Ma'am. And,

Be well.
Doug :O)

I heard a message by John MacArthur some time ago on gray areas that was helpful to me since we are parenting teens and young adults....Hope this helps....I believe you could find the longer version of the message on his website, gty.org

Glorifying God in Gray Areas

Selected Scriptures A165

John MacArthur

Making Decisions in Gray Areas

If the issue you are wondering about is not specifically addressed in the Bible, then it's helpful to ask these questions from 1 Corinthians to help you in deciding what to do. Asking these questions (and others like them) will help you make a wise decision based on sound biblical principles.

1. Will it benefit me spiritually? First Corinthians 10:23 says, "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify."

2. Will it put me in bondage? First Corinthians 6:12 says, "All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything." Any questionable practice that can be habit-forming is not wise to pursue.

3. Will it defile God's temple? First Corinthians 6:19-20 says, "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."We should not do anything with our bodies that would dishonor the Lord.

4. Will it cause others to stumble? First Corinthians 8:8-9 says, "Food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. But take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbling block to the weak." One should refrain from using his freedom in an area which might cause others to sin. For "by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore," Paul said, "if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble."

5. Will it help the cause of evangelism? First Corinthians 10:32-33 says, "Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, that they may be saved." We must think of the effect any practice might have on our testimony to the lost.

6. Will it violate my conscience? First Corinthians 10:25-29 contains three references to abstaining from a certain practice "for conscience' sake." And Romans 14:23 says, "He who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." If we are not sure whether an action is pleasing to God, we should not do it. That way our conscience will remain clear and our relationship to God will not be hindered.

7. Will it bring glory to God? First Corinthians 10:31 summarizes all these principles by saying, "Therefore, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

First of all Luke worm and Gray areas (as described my many here) are not same. Luke worm is to have a stagnated Christian life.

If Gray area is definied as things in which the Bible is not clear, then I feel there cannot be such an area in a persons life if he is filled with Holy Spirit.

1 John 3 20:-
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence [k]before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight

I am hundred precent sure our heart will condemn us if we are doing something against the will of God, even though the scripture is silent about that subject we are dealing with. It is a promise given in scripture.

The reason some still believe in Gray areas because they expect scripture to prove everything as black and white. If there is no clear scripture then they think it is Gray. Actually Scripture cannot cover all things, that is why we have Holy Spirit.

_________________
Sreeram

MaryJane,

Last night as I was thinking about this thread, my mind went to this piece that has been posted on here several times since I have been with SI. It is titled, "Others May, You cannot"

Here is the link:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=685&forum=35&3

_________________
Sandra Miller