| Regarding signs and wonders. A question.|
Ok. A question. Do signs and wonders accompany the preaching of the gospel today? Before you answer this question a few request please. Please observe the SI protocals that we have agreed to. Please prayerfully reason your answer from the scriptures and not from a theogical view point. Please be conciliatory and show respect to one another.
I open this thread not to rbe contraversial (what in this forum?). But much heated discussion has gone on about certain ministries and miracles. I keep hearing in this forum that a wicked and adulterous generation ask for a miracle. So do signs and miracle accompany the preaching of the gospel today? Can we be as the Bereans and search the scriptures to see if these things are true?
Question asked in a spirit of grace and humility by
Blaine Scogin .
| 2011/8/7 21:01|
| Re: Regarding signs and wonders. A question.|
A couple of things come to mind. First there is ample scriptural evidence that the original 12 apostles and even Paul were allowed by God to operate in an unprecedented level of signs and wonders. One need only to look up the word "signs" in a KJV concordance to find ten or so scriptures attesting this fact. So we know that signs and wonders accompanied the early church.
But the question to today must then be considered. Two scriptures that come to mind pretty quickly are these.
First Mark 16:15-18
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mar 16:19-20 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (20) And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Jesus did not say that these signs would follow them that are original 12 apostles and Paul, but rather He stated that these signs would follow them that believe. I am reminded of an event recorded in "The Life of Charles F. Parham" (available online as a free pdf download) when his water was poisoned and he drank. He immediately knew something was wrong with it and did not drink again. However the water was analyzed and the one drink should have killed him immediately. Yet he had no harmful effects. A definite example of verse 18. It is apparent to me from the words Jesus used and from examples in our own time that this is the case.
The second scripture was 1 Corinthians 12:7-14
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (12) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (14) For the body is not one member, but many.
I will preface this comment by saying that I am not at all interested in a cessationalist or non-cessationalist argument. I read here that the gifts of the Holy Spirit include working of miracles, healings, etc. We know that the Holy Spirit has not been taken back and that we can be filled with the same Holy Spirit as was sent by Jesus and recorded in Acts 2. We know that Paul goes on in context to teach that all these gifts are needed and that none should be sought exclusively at the expense of the others. While God may choose to use me in a gift of healing he may choose to use you in prophecy and both are vital to the proper functioning of the body as a whole. I find no scripture that teaches that these gifts have been withdrawn.
A third thing that comes to mind is John 14:11-16
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. (16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
First I find the promise of doing greater works than Christ is made to believers and not simply to 13 men. Second I find the promise that the Comforter is sent to abide with us forever. So to me it seems that if the Holy Spirit is withdrawn that means that time is no more. Interestingly many believe the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit signals the end of all things and the wrath of God poured out.
These are just a few passages and thoughts to ponder.
| 2011/8/7 21:38||Profile|
| Re: |
Oh, a further thought. The fact that there will be an increase of lying signs and wonders would indicate that there is also the operation of the true. How can you counterfeit something that does not exist in reality?
We do truly need spiritual discernment in this hour.
| 2011/8/7 21:40||Profile|
| Re: |
hi, God wrought special miracles by paul.... the shadow of peter... silver and gold have we not but such as we have we give to thee in the name of Jesus rise up and walk and he went walking and leaping.we do not operate in the miraculous because we dont need to in our society if someone is healed the preacher would be the most suprised. i have seen many miracles in the past but God is tired of sharing glory with a knucklehead preacher.the world wide ministry of jimp is what i wanted at one time but it is the world wide ministry of Jesus Christ or nothing. aa allen had creative miracles that would blow your mind as a drunk.on the mission field they pray until God moves. God has the same power ,but he cannot even trust us to get along with each other without miracles... how haughty would we be if we had miracles and healings in our ministry.jimp
| 2011/8/7 23:31||Profile|
| Re: |
Brothers, I appreciate your input on this subject. Travis, thank you for sharing the Word with us.
I know that many in the Body of Christ are skeptical of any signs and wonders because of the strange fire that has broke out in some places, but there is a reason why we do not see signs and wonders taking place very much any more unlike what is occuring in many of the third world countries as the Word of God is being preached.
Jesus could do no mighty works in his own home town because of the unbelief of the people. We say that we want revival, we want the power of God to be manifest, and then when it does happen, it is usally attributed as being a counterfeit, because after all that passed away with the early church.
Signs and wonders will occur with the preaching of the gospel. Jesus Christ is the power and wisdom of God. When Jesus is preached and the Holy Spirit is allowed to have His way, then God will confirm His Word. Signs and wonders should not be the main emphasis, it is the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ that is the power of God to save, heal, and deliver men.
Mighty signs and wonders followed the preaching of men like John G. Lake and Smith Wigglesworth because they did not limit God, and the Lord found vessels that He could display His power through. God is looking for men that He can flow through that will stay humble and will not try to build their ministry on the gifts that He has freely given for the building up of the Body of Christ. Today, many men that are used by God in signs and wonders are put on pedestals, and unfortunatly many believe the publicity and the ministry becomes all about them.
Lord, give us men that know the power of the cross, crucified men and women that will give you all the glory, that you can display your mighty power through.
| 2011/8/8 5:40||Profile|
| Re: Signs and wonders|
These days I expect very little from Churchians that claim much miracle working, as I rarely find any Word or scripture being used with the miracle working. I find I discern most foolishness to be attached to the friends of the Adversary, among the sons of disobedience.
Yet I know that the Ruach haKodesh is among us, and when we pray, we are powerful, and things happen.
The best times for me is when the Holy One calls me during some pending disaster to pray mightily with all those other Believers praying against that disaster, and I FEEL the movement of the joined prayers, and SEE evidence that Abba answers our prayers.
One feels blessed to join in with others across the world, lifting up voice and hand to Adonai, and find that something awful that has happened, or was to happen has been miraculously ameliorated.
| 2011/8/12 3:54||Profile|
| Re: Regarding signs and wonders. A question.|
I keep hearing in this forum that a wicked and adulterous generation ask for a miracle.
This sentence is what stuck in my mind the most, Didn't Jesus rebuke the Pharisees for doing the same thing?
| 2011/8/12 5:47||Profile|
| Re: |
In my church here in germany one of the most common signs that the holy spirit works is that of conviction and repentance and breaking. We have people confessing and repenting sins almost every week. We have very long sermons and the word of god has time to work and to crush the conscience of the people. It happens very often, that people start to cry or collapse sometimes during the meeting.
We have very few altar-calls. I think in the past two years we had one or two altar calls. Our pastor says, that if the preacher does give an altar call, usually the holy spirit has already given three or four altar calls and the people were not obedient.
It also happens very often, that people get delivered from demons during the repentance. God delivers them sometimes without anyone laying hands on them or praying for them (we do that of course, but it happens also without doing that). especially in the last month this increases more and more.
So I can say that there are definitely signs and wonders following, although I know that there are many more signs that we never experienced. But this seem to be very good signs, because the people are totally changed and they are free from sin. this is a good fruit.
| 2011/8/12 7:40||Profile|
| Re. Questor|
I too have participated with other Spirit filled believers and we have prayed against impending disasters. God has marvelously intervened and lives were spared. I have testimonies I could share but let's say TO GOD BE THE GLORY.
| 2011/8/12 11:30|
| Re: Re. Questor|
I always wondered... how do we know God averted disasters if they never happened? It's like saying "I prayed that God would spare me today from being struck by lightning... and He answered my prayer!"
Not trying to be flippant or disrespectful... just wondering, and trying to make a point.
| 2011/8/12 12:23|