I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

Please let me explain what I am saying by giving you two examples.

I was once in jail for a crime that I had committed. The Warden was extremely strict and harsh. The prison had many rules and regulations to be kept. There was severe punishment even for a small or slight infraction of the rules. The warden and the guards were on a constant watch looking for any opportunity to catch someone breaking the rules. They were very anxious and always ready to pounce on anyone that even looked suspicious.

I was under these laws as long as I was in jail. Only when I was released from Jail was I totally free from the authority of the warden, the guards and the laws.

Now let me make this very clear. The authority of the warden, the guards and those laws still existed BUT all this ONLY applied to the people who were IN jail.

Now that I was OUT of jail I was no longer under its authority or its rule. I no longer had a relationship with the jail, the warden, the guards or any of the rules. They could no longer apply to me because I was no longer in jail.
I could drive by the Jail or see that the warden was still alive and well but this fact had NOTHING to be with me at ALL. I was no longer IN the jail.

Example two.

In most states they have different schools for different age groups. The first school I attended was a elementary school. Now when I was a student at this school I was under the schools authority and power. They had a system of rules, regulations that I had to keep or be sent to the principal's office for discipline. (This happened to me many times).

Now when I left that school I was completely free from their system. Why? Because I was no longer IN the school and I was no longer associated with it anymore.

Now the same school was still there with many of the same teachers but this had nothing to do with me at all. The school only has authority and power over the people who are IN IT!!! Once a person left the school, all the rules, regulations and demands no longer applied. Once a person left the school, the relationship with all this was broken. He could no longer keep all the rules, regulations and demands or break them. Why? Because he was no longer In the school. His relationship with the school was no longer in effect when he left. Now the school had nothing to do with them and they have nothing to do with it at all.

Here is what Paul Wrote concerning the law.

Rom. 7:1-6, "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

When I was born into this world I was IN Adam and under the law of sin and death. The only way for me to be free from the law was to completely die and then be put IN Christ.

Before you were saved you were bound to "the old man" by the law. The only way to be legally free from this "old man" was for you to die.

Christ did this!!!

Rom 6:3-8, "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

Now your "old man is dead!!!! Christ did this for you.

"The law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth." You are dead in Christ. The law has no more dominion over you.

"ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."

You are dead to the law. The law did not die. You died to the law. The law still exerts but ONLY has power and authority over those who still live under it.

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

We are no longer In Adam. Christ Himself took us out of Adam and placed us in Himself.

Now we are totally NEW creations In HIM!!

You are free from the law!!!
Can the law have any effect over a dead person?
Can a dead person keep the law?
Can a dead person beak the law?
Is a dead person even concerned with the law?
NO! NO! NO! NO!

You have NO relationship to the law whatsoever. You are no longer in Adam. You are now in Christ and have nothing to do with the law at all.

The law does not apply to you. You can not keep or break it!!!

The Bible's position on this is quite clear. The Christian has no relationship with the Law at all. The Christian has died to the Law (Rom. 7:1-6). Indeed he has died to the whole realm where Law had authority and power. He has been taken out of this world (the old creation) and been placed in a new creation – the Age to Come, the realm of the Spirit or the Kingdom of God. In this realm law has no authority nor does sin. In Christ we belong to a new reality and have died to this world and all the powers that dominate it.

It is a Kingdom of grace; where righteousness is a gift of God and not a work of law keeping; where the life of God is produced in the heart by the Spirit of God and not by an external code; where the measure of godliness is the sacrificial life of Christ and not a moral code; where the dynamic for godliness is Christ crucified and resurrected – our calling is to live by the Spirit a crucified life (dead to world, self, Satan, and Law) and by faith a resurrected life (living in step with the Spirit, led by Him, illuminated by him, taught by him, empowered by him, filled by him etc) rather than the thundering of Sinai or even the redemption of the exodus.

Good post and exampkes.

Great post tuc.
Theology is perfect and Biblical.
The illustrations too are very accurate and clear.
I take that you do not sin any more.

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Fifi

"Children, Obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honor thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and Thou mayest live long on the earth."

Ephesians 6:1-3.

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Jeremiah Dusenberry

A good post tuc, it helps much to hear what you believe, for there are so many voices try to take it away from you. Again, thanks I needed that.

Romans 8:1-9 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Praise God I am no longer under the warden and his guards. I have been set free. I have the Spirit of Christ in me now and it is by His work in me that makes me pleasing to our Father.

Not only am I our of prison, but I am dead to sin and resurrected to new life. Even if I fall into the old man mold and sin, it no longer has a hold over me, for we have the Advocate with the Father that set us free in the first place. Grace, Free at last.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Justified by the Faith of Christ, set free to live the life of Christ that is in me.

This wonderful mystery revealed to His saints now.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

By His working, every man perfect as we are in Christ not my own perfection but His, presenting me to the Father, "Perfect": Phillip

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Phillip

I think it is important for us to understand the distinction between the civil, ceremonial and moral Law in the OT. If we do not make that distinction we can fall into a form of "semi-antinomianism" as Christians.

The Bible is crystal clear that as Christians we have absolutely no relation to the civil and ceremonial aspects of the OT Law. But the moral Law still applies for us to keep in mind and abide by through the Spirit's power. Areadymind pointed out a good example of this principle from Eph 6(Other examples are in Rom.13:8-10 and James 2:11-12)).

So we see throughout the New Testament epistles that the moral Law still applies to us. The NT writers warn us over and over regarding the practice of "law-breaking". Romans 8:7-8 tells us, "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

One main difference for us as Christians is that we have a clearer understanding of the spiritual nature of the moral Law than what was written in the OT. In the sermon on the mount Christ clearly explained the spiritual nature of the moral Law so that we would not walk in darkness regarding it. We have a higher standard to abide by than what was commonly "understood" prior to Christ.

Another main difference is that we now have the Spirit's power abiding in us that enables us to keep it
(Rom.8:1-11).

And now we can call it "The Law of Christ"(1Cor.9:21). That law of Christ is essentially the same moral Law from the OT but understood better and kept better by true believers in Christ. So we are not "lawless" if we are true Christians.

But as to not having any relation to the wrath and condemnation which the Law brings, I completely agree with the OP.

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Oracio

The whole point of the Gospel is God revealing His Son in us. No law or rule can ever accomplish that.

Gal. 1:15-16, "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood."

No law or rule can ever give Life.

Gal. 3:21-22, "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal. 2:20-21, "I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

We now have HIS Life and we are now the righteousness of God In Him. This was gift of God and not a work of law keeping; where the life of God is produced in the heart by the Spirit of God and not by an external code; where the measure of godliness is the sacrificial life of Christ and not a moral code; where the dynamic for godliness is Christ crucified and resurrected - our calling is to live by the Spirit a crucified life (dead to world, self, Satan, and Law) and by faith a resurrected life (living in step with the Spirit, led by Him, illuminated by him, taught by him, empowered by him, filled by him etc) rather than the thundering of Sinai or even the redemption of the exodus. I even live by HIS faith, not by any faith that I could ever produce.

Oracio: You called attention to a difference in moral law and ceremonial or civil law and stated, if I understand you correctly, that we are no longer bound in any way, shape, or form to the civil or ceremonial portion of the law but still live under the moral law. One statement that you made is that "the law of Christ is essentially the same moral Law from the OT but understood better and kept better by true believers in Christ. So we are not 'lawless' if we are true Christians." I would ask us to consider a couple of items that I think pertain to this discussion.

First the Bible does not make any distinction between nor does it call out any distinction between "moral" and "civil" law. I believe this distinction is a construct of man applied to the Bible. I do understand that teachers have used Biblical evidence to try to weed out what is moral and what is civil or ceremonial, but I do not see the distinction as a Biblical one but rather as a human one.

That being said, look at Matthew chapter 5 where Jesus discusses what we might call the "moral" law.

Mat 5:17-48 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (21) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: (22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (23) Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (24) Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. (25) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. (26) Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. (27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (31) It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (32) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (33) Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: (34) But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: (35) Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. (36) Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. (37) But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. (38) Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (39) But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (40) And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. (41) And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. (42) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. (43) Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (46) For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? (47) And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? (48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Notice that Jesus came not to destroy the law but rather to fulfill and that until the end not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all of the law is fulfilled. A couple of things that I notice. First Jesus makes no distinction between the moral or civil law. He simply refers to the law and says that not one little part will pass from the law until all be fulfilled. But we know that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. Remember that He was witnessed by the law and the prophets. What many call the ceremonial law presents a beautiful picture of Christ that we see totally fulfilled in His person and in what He has done.

Now Jesus goes on to quote some portions of the law and present the fact that the letter of the law is not God's holy standard but only in imperfect picture of God's standard. For example murder vs hatred and adultery vs lust.

So we see that even what many call the "moral" part of the law is still only a very imperfect picture at best of standard of holiness that God is and requires of all who enter His kingdom.

So just as Jesus fulfilled the so called "ceremonial" portion of the law so too He is the fulfillment of the so called "moral" portion of the law. When I have my righteousness through Christ Jesus, when I am sanctified and set apart by Him, He is my righteousness and His Holy Spirit is my guide. As a spirit born again I will follow the leading of the Holy Spirit where moral life is concerned. I don't refrain from murder because murder is wrong is God's eyes. I don't refrain from adultery because adultery is wrong in God's eyes. I don't refrain from pornography because it is wrong in God's eyes. I refrain from doing these things because it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. If I find myself missing the mark in some area my spirit grieves within me and I know that I have not lived from the Spirit but rather from my flesh and I quickly repent. (As I did a few moments ago when I found myself grumbling to myself about something my wife did. She was not present but I immediately knew my grumbling was not in keeping with Christ in me through the Holy Spirit's conviction and I repented before God.) You see to live in Christ or better put to have Him live through us will be to have Him be through us the fulfillment of the whole law, spirit and letter.

I also think it detrimental to the body to see the NT as simply a superior form of the OT law that we are still under bondage to keep. If I am keeping the law then I am doing it out of my own effort and it will produce the same death in me. But if I allow the literal fulfillment of the law to live out life through me through the person of the Holy Spirit then I am no longer doing ANYTHING of myself and I will through this death to self find life in Him.

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Travis

Twayne wrote,
"So just as Jesus fulfilled the so called "ceremonial" portion of the law so too He is the fulfillment of the so called "moral" portion of the law. When I have my righteousness through Christ Jesus, when I am sanctified and set apart by Him, He is my righteousness and His Holy Spirit is my guide."

No disagreement there. I did not write that we can or should keep the moral law to attain a righteousness before God and earn a place in heaven through our lawkeeping. Christ fulfilled the perfect requirement of that law on our behalf. But that does not mean we can now be lawless. That's what the NT makes very clear.

Although we are set free from the legal punishment of the law which is hell, we are still commanded to obey the law through the Spirit's enabling. Jesus said, if you love Me keep my commandments. What are His commandments. We see clearly in the NT that His commandments are "you shall not commit adultery/or lust, murder/or hate, have unforgiveness, use profane speech, get drunk, etc.etc.

If we have a problem with and/or despise those commandments we have a problem with God's Word and God's mind and holiness. For the child of God those commandments are something he delights in, like Paul speaks of in Romans 7 and David speaks of in Psalm 1. Those commandments are part of the nature and character of God, which our new man loves and desires to be like above all else.

This may break some bubbles but in the NT epistles we DO have a set of RULES we are commanded to abide by. Over and over we are exhorted and commanded as Christians to abstain from all form of wickedness or ungodliness and walk in the fruit of the Spirit. Not my word but God's.

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Oracio

I agree with the OP regarding a man in Christ led by the Spirit. The key is "led by the Spirit."

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Galatians 5:16-18)

If you walk in the Spirit you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh and thus are not under the law as Christ then lives his life through you. Those led by the Spirit are under grace. And here is the condition and effect of being under grace.

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:13-14)

Also- "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12)

What's important to say regarding this topic is that MANY say they are not under the law who live wicked lives in sin. Such are indeed under the law until they repent and follow Christ as a true disciple led by the Spirit. If we don't proclaim and demonstrate the effect of the grace of God as true righteousness by the life of Christ and power not to fulfill the lust of the flesh by grace, then many will end up twofold the children of hell thinking that they are safe and under grace in their sin. All those who are lawless and disobedient need to hear the condemnation of their lives and the claim of God's rightful authority over us by the law so they will be persuaded to repent and flee to Christ for true grace.

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." (1 Timothy 1:8-11)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (Greek: anomia-lawlessness)." (Matthew 7:21-23)

The distinction between the moral and ceremonial law can be seen here: "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17)

The New Testament says in numerous places that fornicators, covetous, murderers, idolaters, etc (rebels against the moral law) will go to hell (Revelation 21:8, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5-6, etc). It never says so of those that don't keep the ceremonial law such as the physical Sabbath, holydays, and eat foods deemed unclean under the Old Covenant.