Daniel 12:5-7. "Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

Revelation 10:5-7. "And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Dan 12:9 And he saith, `Go, Daniel; for hidden and sealed are the things till the time of the end

All the elements of Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 10:5-7 are in parallel. There is only one real difference and that is the timeline. When the angel in Daniel makes his oath, he declares that it was going to be a “time, times, and half a time.”

A period of time was going to pass by before these events would unfold. This is the repeated point to Daniel in Daniel 12:9. The words were shut up and sealed until the time of the end. The fulfillment of the prophecy would not happen in the days of Daniel. It would be later. It would be “a time, times, and half a time.”

Re: “a time, times, and half a time.”

The trampling of the holy city is going to take place for 42 months (Rev.11:2). The time of the invasion of the Roman Empire against Judea was approximately three and a half years.

Revelation 11:3 speaks of 1260 days which is also 42 months. In Revelation 13:5 we read about the beast exercising authority for 42 months. When three and half years, 42 months, or 1260 days is declared, it is referring to a time of distress, tribulation, persecution, or destruction.

The reference to, “a time, times, and half a time” in Daniel represents the three and a half years of the invasion of the Roman Empire against Judea.

The angel reveals in Daniel what event his oath concerns. Notice the end of verse 7, “…when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.” When the angel said these words to Daniel, the “holy people” was a reference to the physical nation of Israel. Daniel 12:1 confirms this.

And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. (Daniel 12:1 )

The angel tells Daniel that this prophecy is about his people, that is, the Jewish nation. Those who were written in the book would be delivered from this time of trouble, this great tribulation.

In Revelation 10 the angel has declared that when the seventh angel blows his trumpet, the things announced by the prophets (particularly with Daniel’s prophecy in mind) will be fulfilled. The angel that told Daniel that there would be delay (a time, times, and half of time) tells John that there will not be a delay now.

Rev. 10:1 And I saw another strong angel coming down out of the heaven, having been clothed with a cloud, and a rainbow on the head; and his face as the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire.

This mighty angel is wrapped in a cloud. Clouds consistently carry the symbolism of judgment in the scriptures.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. Revelation 1:7

Behold, he comes up like clouds; his chariots like the whirlwind; his horses are swifter than eagles— woe to us, for we are ruined! Jeremiah 4:13

For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near; it will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. Ezekiel 30:3

This angel is coming to declare judgment on the earth. This angel is also described with a rainbow over his head. The rainbow carries the symbolism of God’s covenant. God’s judgment is about to be unleashed in keeping with God’s covenant that he made with his people.

When the seventh angel blew his trumpet then all that the prophets had spoken concerning this event would be fulfilled. Remember that this angel was seen in Daniel 12:7 saying that the shattering of the power of the holy people was going to come. The angel in Revelation 11:6-7 says there is no more delay. The shattering of the power of the holy people would take place when the seventh angel sounds the trumpet. The seventh trumpet now sounds. This pictures of the fall of the city of Jerusalem, the judgment against the physical Jewish nation.

Where specifically, “every eye will see Him, and they also who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him” (Revelation 1:7 and Zechariah 12:10).

Paul confirms this as he writes his first letter to the Thessalonians,

"For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God’s wrath has come upon them at last!" 1 Thessalonians 2:14–16

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7)

What is the "mystery" that will be finished "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound"?

The mystery is, "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Colossians 1:27)

Amen.

Quote Savannah: "The man of lawlessness is Nero Caesar."

Maybe I over-reacted last night and wasn't giving the Christians who post here enough credit.

There are some posts that are so obviously in error that one need not take the time to try to change the posters mind, nor need to "protect the vulnerable", when it appears so engrained in those who post such things, as their opinion of 'choice'.

Teaching that all things have happen historically is not the belief held in the SI Statement of Faith, so I'm comfortable with that fact as well.

But, I still 'care' Savannah and I do fear for you, for the future - I'm talking from my heart now. You'll feel no need to exercise the Biblically Prophetic 'caution' in these last days with a Historicist view of things - that one could barely define as "eschatology".

Regardless of what long articles you post and how firmly you place your trust in the Preterist view - I don't doubt that before this life is over, you may have second thoughts about believing that all of prophecies have been fulfilled in Nero, etc..

We're to protect one another and my first reaction was to protect the unlearned, but seeing now this last post - I feel that my heart is going out to you more than any. I feel now that the "unlearned" are not even here to worry about - but you are.
There's a horror show breathing down our necks. Days far surpassing any days of history past. Those prophecies are taking place as we speak and unfolding with such Biblical accuracy, it only confirms the Authorship of our beloved Bibles.
It will take all that we have to stand - future tense - as Daniel said - Even those "with understanding will fall to try them" - nonetheless those who believe they'll escape "those days" by a secret rapture or those who feel "those days" have already past.

You have my love & prayers for continued revelation on these topics.

Bless you, body, soul & spirit - in Jesus' Name.

Hi savannah,

Sorry I've taken so long to get down to writing more in this thread. You have posted a host of extracts in support of the notion that Michael the archangel became the Christ.

In particular, please could you supply the source of this from W.E. Vine, (in your first post on p1), from which you took, "Michael and his angels fought against the dragon -Michael was the man child which the woman brought forth, as is evident from the context"?

Thank you.

Here are more verses to support the distinction between the uncreated Son, the Logos, the Word who became flesh - Jesus Christ by whom came grace and truth, and angels - spirits created to obey God's commands, to worship and serve Him.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

The whole of Hebrews 1, especially v 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.



Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Clearly, the Son is of a different nature from both men and angels, until His incarnation.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.



Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.


There are many similies in the Bible. One of the most striking is Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for AS a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Similarly, Michael being 'who-as-God' can be a mighty angel who acts on His instruction in a warrior role. We have an idea of angels being especially strong (They are.) and invincible, (which on God's side, they are), but they are also all created beings, who do not have 'knowledge'.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

And only, some angels observe the delight of the Father and the Son:

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.



Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he [Christ] cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Colossians 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.



There are many other references to angels which maintain their disctinction from both God and men, and most notably, which neither claim nor indicate the relationship to our heavenly Father or to us born from above, implicit in the idea that Michael the archangel could be a manifestation of the only begotten Son of God.

Hello again savannah,

One other thing that's troubling, is this:

There is another aspect to Michael's being 'as God'. That is, the authority he carries when executing his orders, or, in fulfilling his role as an archangel with certain duties expected of him; for instance, going to help the Son.

Luke 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


This authority (power) of which Jesus spoke, in the matter of it being exercised by those He has sent, is well-expressed by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; AND HATH COMMITTED UNTO US THE WORD of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, AS THOUGH GOD DID BESEECH [you] BY US: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


In the following cases, although Gabriel's name is slightly less explicit than Michael's, we see the same principle in operation:

Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Daniel 8:16 6 And I heard a man's voice between [the banks of] Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this [man] to understand the vision.

Strong's Old Testament Hebrew Definition:

01403 Gabriy'el {gab-ree-ale'}
from 01397 and 0410;; n pr m
AV - Gabriel 2; 2
Gabriel = "warrior of God" or "man of God"
1) an archangel; the angel God used to send messages of great importance to man; sent to Daniel, to Zacharias, and to Mary

Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.

Gabriel delivered a message from God to Mary - vv 28 - 37 under His full authority.


Judges 13:6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance [was] like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he [was], neither told he me his name: 7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean [thing]: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.


Here is another important message delivered by an angel with the full authority of God:

Matthew 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].

5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

As NOT a side note, see there at the end 'lo, I have told you' (the use of 'I')? This is very like Paul referring to the gospel as 'my gospel'. Likewise, if you and I don't believe that we have authority to speak from God, that's exactly what it will sound like to those who hear our words, and they won't believe we have any authority either. But even if we do exercise our legitimate authority in the Lord, we would never claim to BE God (I hope).

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Matthew 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.



I have left out, deliberately, the verses in which a person comes 'in' Jesus' name to another person. Jesus warns that at this point, deception is possible. But, I believe, IF we know the One who gives the authority, we should be able to recognise others who also know Him.

To staff,

You might find this interesting. It's the word 'restrain' as an alternative translation for 'finish', in a verse in Daniel. Here it is. I've left all the extra translation.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

{finish: or, restrain}

{make an...: or, seal up}

{prophecy: Heb. prophet}

_________________
David

For those who've an interest,listen at the link below:

http://www.edbudd.net/Home/audio/February1,2010Show.m3u