Guys, I don't think I'm ever going to be saved (3)

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Discussion Forum : Miracles that follow the plow : Guys, I don't think I'm ever going to be saved

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broclint
Member

Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

Re: hell

Paulmcg and jdl,

I read these comments, hopefully with sensitivity, but cannot help but be stirred and grieved at the same time. Jesus, as you know, spoke about hell more than anyone and there is no doubt that one of the reasons He came was because He knew the eternal tragedy of it, and yet the utter neccessity also, and was quite willing to pay the penalty to keep us out of hell. That verse that always comforts my heart regarding the love of God and the preposteriousness of men going to hell by their own choices is: Matthew 25:41 (NKJV) "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:..."

It was "prepared" for the arch rebel, and it is the eternal place of quarantine for rebellion.

I recently preached a message on the horror of the fact that hell is [b]chosen[/b] ... and it is at the end of multiple choices. It can be read[url=Matthew 25:41 (NKJV) ] here[/url].

I pray that you will read and be helped by this message. God is still the God of the greatest love, mercy, hope, help. But to forget that He must be a just judge is the curse of our day.

Clint

_________________
Clint Thornton

2009/11/11 11:53

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Re:

Quote:

I could go to sleep tonight and not wake up tomorrow and I don't know what would happen. It's really scary at times. I wonder how I'm going to die and what is going to happen.

I remember when I was filled with the Holy Spirit many years ago, my perception of receiving was that everything would be an overcoming life living above sin type of life. And certainly that is the way it should be, however, after about 4 to 5 months I fell into the same sin that I thought was gone out of my life. It devastated my understanding of the life in Christ that I fell into a depression and I didn't care if lived or died. I prayed every night that God would take my life while I slept I simply did not want to live any more having thought that God didn't want anything to do with me therefore the only course left was death.

That went on for about 2 weeks. One day I got out of bed and went down to the kitchen. We live in a house where the kitchen is the going concern and there were always people going through that kitchen, that day no one was around. I remember hearing the radio being on and the Kingston Trio singing, "Where have all the flowers gone". And I broke, the flood gates opened and I started to weep uncontrollably. I kept asking myself, "Why am I crying?". I have never wept like that before or since, but I knew why. It was the Holy Spirit in me using my body to weep through. He was being grieved that I was choosing death over the life that God had given me. He didn't want me to die, He wanted me to live even though I had fallen short of the glory of God.

I forget what the outcome of that was, but things turned around rather quickly and I was thrust into a Church that spoke much about faith, justification and sanctification and the power of God. Oh, I soaked up the word of God.

It's imperative that we know the word of God. We should never be left alone to form our own ideas about the word of God.

We should not "believe in hell", we should believe in the God who created it for those who are disobedient and choose to go contrary to what they know is truth. And since we are lovers of God we have nothing to fear, to dwell on this subject of fearing hell is absolutely unfruitful, no edification and does not bring about true repentance. "It's the goodness of God that leadeth men unto repentance", not the fear of hell.

2009/11/11 12:19

Re:

jdl i want to give you some encouragement because i know what your going through. My friend robert who i have said is like a 24/7 christian and loves the Lord more than anyone i have ever seen, he is so filled with the holy spirit. But before he was saved he had believed Christ was the son of God he came to that point of belief and he wanted to be saved, he tried to repent and believe and still he was just dead, no change nothing. This went on for months and one night he just wanted to end his life because he was so miserable as it was and the Lord wasn't saving him, he went to a bridge to jump off it but he decided to not do it by the grace of God. It was satan he told me trying to kill him before he got saved. But anyways finally some time after he repented again and i mean confessing all of his sins but he said it was different this time it was a real repentance before he said he just knew it was not real repentance but thi time it was real work of the holy spirit causing true repentance and true belief o saving faith and he finally was saved. You know i know many people will say if you believe the promises of God and go by what it says, God is not a liar and you will be saved, and i completely agree with that and i exhort you to just believe the word of God as if he is no man and would lie but it is also possible the Lord is still working in you to bring true salvation or your going through a trial as a christian, i usually lean toward that if your doubting and have no clue if your saved and the spirit aint bearing witness their can be no assurance but i could be wrong but i know many people on here will be nice and kind but you ask any true believer and they know so, we should pray for you but spend hours and hours to cry out to God until he answers, even cry and scream to be saved.

2009/11/11 12:45

Leo_Grace
Member

Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703

Re:

Dear Paulmcg1 (and Jdl),

Quote:

If God is God, He could save everyone. I don't see how leaving a person in hell forever would be better.

It is wrong for you to think that God is so cruel as to willfully leave anyone in hell. This is simply not the case. It is actually God's declared will that ALL men be saved. In fact it was because of His love for men that He willingly gave us His Son to redeem us from our sins and provide a way to return to Him:

[i]1Ti 2:3-6 This is good, and pleases [b]God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth[/b]. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man [b]Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men[/b]the testimony given in its proper time.[/i]

But God is a holy and a just God. If there is something God cannot change, it is His character --His holiness and His justice. Because God is holy, sin cannot stand before Him. It is the same way that darkness cannot exist side-by-side with light. Where there is light, there can be no darkness; and where there is darkness, there is no light.

Because God is just, all sin must be paid for. That is why Jesus died to pay for all our sins once and for all. But that redemption bought with the blood of Jesus must be accepted through faith. One cannot accept something that he does not believe in. Without faith there can be no redemption. Without redemption, one must pay for his own sins in hell.

God, by his grace, has provided the way for all men to return to Him, so if anyone should go to hell, it is because they chose not to return to God. It is not God's fault, but man's.

[i]Tit 2:11-14 [b]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men[/b]. It teaches us to say No to ungodliness and worldly passions, m and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hopethe glorious appearing of [b]our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness[/b] and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.[/i]

If the idea of hell makes you angry because of the eternal torment it signifies, then be angry at sin and at sinful man -- never be angry at God who has done so much to keep us with Him, and away from hell.

2009/11/11 12:48

Profile

Re:

Quote:

Cafeteria Catholics aptly describes my parents, so there may be hope yet.

I want you to consider the possibility that you yourself do not yet understand the Catholic faith. If all you have to go on is how your mom lives, my guess is that you have not properly been introduced to what Catholic Christianity has believed and confessed for almost two thousand years.

Quote:

But everytime Mom brings up something and I say "I don't believe in that" (usually St. Worship and prayer cards), I feel like I'm slapping her in the face and disrespecting her feelings.

Yeah, see this is what I mean. Catholics do not worship saints. Many prot's accuse them of this. But it is patently false. You're not going to get very far in telling someone that they believe something they do not in fact believe.

Catholics believe that when Christians die in the state of grace, they are not separated from Christ. They are in fact more united with Him due to their perfection in holiness and love. We are connected with those saints who have gone before THROUGH the body of Christ. The word "pray" simply means "ask" or "to make a request". The book of James says the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. And those in heaven definitely do pray for us as we are told in the book of Revelation. They are the spirits of just men made perfect. We down here on the other hand are still being perfected. So please consider that they are not worshipping someone by asking for their intercession with Christ. This does not hurt Christ's mediation as high priest for us since it is Christ that the saints are interceding with on our behalf. It is not very different than asking a Christian friend to pray for you. Why do you even do that? I mean...can't you just pray straight to Jesus? See what I mean. The Prot argument breaks down under scrutiny.

Quote:

That being said, if one gains the state of saving grace but loses it, is it possible for that person to once-again cleave to Jesus for salvation, or is that person doomed for Hell?

For a Protestant this is harder than for a Catholic. A Catholic has the benefit of a priest who in the line of the apostles through the laying on of hands. Jesus breathed on His apostles and gave them the power to forgive and retain sins. (Jn. 20:22, 23)

So a Catholic who has true contrition for their sins may validly be received back into the saving body of Christ after having committed a mortal sin. For a Protestant, they may achieve this through perfect contrition...sorrow not only for having merited hell, BUT ALSO for having offended God whom they should love above all things. This is not the normative way of receiving absolution of mortal/deadly sin. It is extraordinary. We should always seek to use the means God has provided for us and not tempt the Lord our God.

Quote:

I started my Christian walk a couple months ago in September, and I recently backslid and am afraid I could be headed somewhere I don't want to go. The backslide is my responsibility, but how do I fix things?

This was my story as a Protestant as well. To answer plainly, you need all of the graces available to you in the Church Jesus founded. Yes the backslide is your responsibility. But great assurance is to be found in the Catholic church.

Quote:

(Sometimes I just wish I was more mature in the faith so I was certain about things!)

I was a Protestant pastor and considered "mature" in the faith. But yet due to my own human weakness and the weakness of the principle of Sola Scriptura or Bible Alone figuring out doctrine was left up to my own ability to interpret Scripture and hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.

Some of these guys on SI will tell you they are certain about what they believe. But most of them disagree with each other on a wide range of issues.

The truth is that if you remain Protestant you probably can't count on maturing into a place of assurance about anything.

Protestantism is fatally flawed. It is the new kid on the block. Many of their doctrines are new and strange.

I encourage you to look into the ancient church.

You can PM me for any specific questions.

God bless you on your journey.

2009/11/11 12:53

Leo_Grace
Member

Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703

Re:

Dear haydock,

Quote:

The truth is that if you remain Protestant you probably can't count on maturing into a place of assurance about anything. Protestantism is fatally flawed. It is the new kid on the block. Many of their doctrines are new and strange. I encourage you to look into the ancient church.

As a former Catholic, I would challenge you on this. But this thread is not the place for such a discussion. If you believe strongly in what you shared here, please start a new thread on what you call the "ancient church" and I will discuss with you there.

In a nutshell, I disagree with you. The Catholic Church is nothing more than a pretender to true Christianity. It was founded by the Roman Empire to subvert the spread of the gospel, and not by the apostles. And even today, its doctrines and practices run contrary to the teachings of God in scripture, and it continues to lead men into rebellion against God.

Please start a new thread under "Scripture and Doctrines" - we can discuss there.

2009/11/11 13:11

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MaryJane
Member

Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057

Re:

greetings jmooney6

I don't want to get side track from Jdl post to much but I did want to encourage you jmooney6. My own mother to is lost and deceived in the false and pagan religion that is the Roman Catholic Church. She will not hear the truth and like you said of your mom, my mom also prays to saints and to mary. This is idol worship and nothing less. I know how difficult this is to know the truth of who Jesus is and want to share it with those you care about most only to have them reject it. Many are lost in the RCC and in need of prayer. I will be praying for you and your mom.

God Bless
maryjane

2009/11/11 13:16

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Re:

Quote:

It is wrong for you to think that God is so cruel as to willfully leave anyone in hell.

Amen, I have been there and actually have done that. And God cannot be charged with folly.

Satan your a liar!

2009/11/11 15:08

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Quote:

As a former Catholic, I would challenge you on this. But this thread is not the place for such a discussion.

You are right. This thread is not the place for debating. And to be honest, while I would welcome the debate, I would only want to do so with you if you agreed to stay on topic and not throw ten issues at once. I've debated others who were not charitable and had not interest in finding truth. As soon as I soundly refuted one of their claims they dropped the issue and moved to something new without giving rebuttal.

Besides, theology is a divine science. It is not something to be entered into flippantly to "prove someone wrong." It is something to be entered into prayerfully and in the fear of God.

I could counter your statements here, but I do not want to be hypocritical. I just want to help this dear soul who is being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine like I was.

2009/11/11 15:23

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Quote:

My own mother to is lost and deceived in the false and pagan religion that is the Roman Catholic Church. She will not hear the truth and like you said of your mom, my mom also prays to saints and to mary. This is idol worship and nothing less.

Yeah, see this is the kind of unhelpful accusation I was talking about. God love you, maryjane, but I think you know deep down that this is not what is going on.

I can accept that you do not like or agree with it. But to call it "worship" or "idolatry" is simply ridiculous.

jmooney6,

There is no peace in what these sincere people write to you. I used to believe like them. It is the path of doubt and confusion. It is not the wisdom from above. It is relativistic, self-direction based upon an individual self-reliance on one's personal ability to ascertain truth apart from all others.

You're only gonna find your peace in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church that Jesus founded and is still going strong today.

Grace to you.

2009/11/11 15:27