Hi Frank...

I certainly agree with the understanding that God's judgment is coming. In fact, this is evident in the very Word of God...written thousands of years ago! Yet God mingles his words of judgment with perfect love and mercy in a new covenant. It isn't just a pronouncement of judgment. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that men can come to know the Creator of the universe! By choosing to follow after Him instead of selfishly preferring the things of this world for personal pleasure, men can escape a guilty sentence on the day of God's judgment.

Please don't get me wrong: I don't shy away from the "supernatural." In fact, I have seen things and experienced things that I won't even write about! I know that God still acts and moves in supernatural ways in this present world.

Sadly, there is a lot of fake stuff out there that tends to convolute what is from God. I have met so many people who claimed to be prophets (or who seem to want recognition as such). Unfortunately, much of what they say is hidden behind something less becoming than what should be expected in a child of God. It is like a tap that spurts out both clean and dirty water. Often, it isn't just what these people say -- but by the spirit in which they say it. Of all of the would-be prophets out there, I haven't seen many that I can conclude are the "real thing."

Of course, I don't know what would prompt a man to falsely prophesy by speaking their own words as if they were the words of God. While some could do it for monetary game, I think that many actually mean well. Perhaps they are offering God a little "help" -- like the man who tried to steady the cart with the Ark on it. Perhaps the ego has grown so large...and they still feel a love for God...that they proclaim what they "think" as if it were written in Heaven. Someone suggested something like this on the 23 MINUTES IN HELL thread last week. Either way, they are unaware of the damage that they do when they speak for God but are speaking under their own imagination.

Of course, this thread isn't really about that. However, it was about the possibility of the judgment of God coming quickly upon America. Interestingly enough, we had a couple of dear brothers in the Lord (sincere, I feel very confident to say) who proclaimed that an economic judgment was going to happen a couple of years ago...within a particular calendar year. Lots of "lesser" judgments were seen -- like Hurricane Katrina. Yet I worried for those brothers who spoke with such specifics. You see, they didn't utter one of those generic "judgment is coming" words (we hear so many of those today, but mostly for the positive). They spoke with specifics. December 31st came...and went...without a stock market crash.

I felt great concern and compassion for those brothers...because I cared for them deeply. And I still do. They are in my prayers often. I trust that they sincerely felt that the word was true...but it just wasn't accurate (at least, not in its entirety). Yet just before the set dates, I told one of these brothers that I was praying that his prophesy would NOT come to pass. Why? I still care for the country of my temporary citizenship. I am praying that God will spare the people of this country long enough for God to do something great "while it is yet day." That is still my prayer each time that I hear another person pronounce that judgment is coming. It isn't that I don't believe it will come (especially with the rate of decay of society). Rather, I am praying because there is still so much work to be done. I am praying that the Lord of the harvest sends workers before the sun sets completely on this nation.

As for the other thing to consider, I don't know any believers who think of people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter as anything more than political pundits. I don't listen to them. I have heard them in the past, but it was extremely rare. I don't know what they have done to invite your constant agitation, although their words or views might be aggressively abrasive. Now, I do consider myself to be quite conservative when speaking of matters of righteousness (particularly in regard to abortion, etc...). I am not this way because of media bias on television, print or radio. I am this way because I know Jesus Christ and His Word...and this has impressed me one way or the other. While you might want people in the "conservative Christian" movement to stand up to the Limbaugh's, Hannity's or Coulter's or this land, I think that there are far more pressing issues at hand. Like Andrew said, it isn't necessarily about Obama...or Bush...or Clinton...or Van Jones...etc... Usually, my issues are in regard to specific matters of righteousness or unrighteousness.

Yes, things are poised to grow darker. We have a government that is actively promoting abortion. We have members of government who are encouraging homosexuals to parade in the streets in their attempt to redefine marriage. We have members of Congress who strive to treat homosexuals like they are normal and Christians like they are imbeciles. We have members of the government who are more worried about the planet's temperature than the spiritual and moral climate of their own children. We have politicians worried more about unborn penguins and polar bears that the defenseless children being murdered by an act of their legislation. Yes, these are about issues...and not the person. It doesn't matter to me if such decrepit sin is embraced or promoted by a Limbaugh or an Obama -- it is still sin. When I point to people that I meet and tell them about the Lord, I mention just how sinful this world has gotten. Society just doesn't even blush any more in regard to sin! Like Ray Comfort says, it is difficult to tell people that they need to be saved when they don't think that they are doing anything wrong to begin with.

Yes, we need a revival -- and by that I mean a penetrating hunger to know the Living God! We are in dire need of REAL prophets too...Elijahs of God! Where are the John the Baptists? Where are the men who will stand up in this world and prepare the way of the Lord? Where is a man who is not afraid to tell Herod what sin is? Sadly, most would-be prophets are too busy telling their words to the Church than telling them to a world that is lost and dying and racing toward judgment.

:-(

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Christopher

Hey Chris, you wrote..

"Sadly, there is a lot of fake stuff out there that tends to convolute what is from God. I have met so many people who claimed to be prophets."

We have all met those, brother. Maybe that is your ministry, identifying false prophets and what is and is not genuinune supernatural. There is a place for this in the ministry and many of us have written time and time again about the peddlers and the charlatans.

You say that you are concerned about issues like abortion and homosexuality and that you tell people that you meet how bad the world is, yet does not the word say that when we, the church, turn from our wicked ways then the Lord would hear from heaven and heal our land? The world is wicked brother, no big news there. Its wicked and will continue to get more so. Yet God calls the church to repentance if we want Him to heal our land. That is why so many are called to talk about the state of the church, because the church is the light of the world and is salt to the world, and if it loses it saltiness then it will become useless.

If you know nothing of Rush Limbaugh and his cohorts brother, then perhaps you should not comment? Enough to say that they have caused enormous damage to conservative Christians who idolize them.

I was interested to hear your comments as to why the vast majority of the church has never seen anyone come to Jesus through their sharing brother? What about the 100 million possible converts? Would this not be the greatest revival of all time? Would abortion and homosexuality not be severly damaged if 100 million people came to Christ? Can I suggest my own reason why I believe the church is not seeing people getting saved? They are not in the field brother, they are probably at a rally in Washington telling the world how wicked it is :(.........Frank

Hi Frank...

I wouldn't say that it is my "ministry" to identify false prophets. I think that we are all called to "test everything." Now, this is not the same as judging the heart of a man. I have met people who have admitted to certain things...but they still had at least some semblance of a heart for God. I have met people who later admitted to having faked certain "supernatural" things (such as being slain in the spirit, claiming to have visions and dreams, and even prophesying). They did claim to love the Lord and this love seemed somewhat sincere. Why did they do it? Well, they each were different. One guy told me that he didn't even know WHY he did it.

The reason that I mention issues like abortion, homosexuality, etc... is because sometimes people need to know what the sins of this world are. Yes, the world is wicked and has ALWAYS been wicked (without Christ). Yet, in the last days, wickedness has multiplied upon the Earth. It has increased to the point where men don't know what is wicked and what is not. Politicians are saying that homosexuality is normal...and those who claim that it is not are "hateful." I tell this to people in order to illustrate how quickly this world is spiraling into even further darkness.

Of course, the Church should already know this. If not, people need to stand up and say it. Yet the prophets of the Old Testament went and proclaimed God's Word to the world. They went into sinful places and told the truth. The Church certainly needs to be told the truth too. However, it seems like most of the "prophets" and "evangelists" spend their time and effort talking to believers...and not unbelievers. This doesn't help much (at least, directly) in regard to the people going to Hell. We have become like the Parable of the Fishless Fishermen, where professional "fishers of men" spend their time lecturing others about going fishing...but never catching fish themselves.

I didn't bring up Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter -- you did. I am familiar with them and some of the things that they say, so I do feel enough to make a comment. You have vilified these people several times. Why? What have they said? If it is so important that you point them out with your words, why not be specific? What have they said or done that has caused "enormous damage?" You may think that people "idolize" them, but I have never met a true believer who has. To me (and to all of the believers that I know), those figures are merely flawed political media pundits. I don't trust them any more than I do anyone else. I do think that you need to be careful when you point out names like this without bringing any proof with you. There is a problem when someone feels the need to pinpoint figures like Hannity, Limbaugh, Coultier, Presidents Bush or President Obama. In fact, it sort of goes along with what Andrew Strom is saying in this article.

As for why people are not getting saved: I think that it is ridiculous to conclude that the world is not getting saved because some Christians go to a rally in Washington. That is silly and seems to be a slightly off-cuff remark directed at those believers who feel that they can preach the Gospel to the world AND still have limited participation in government functions.

There are plenty of reasons why the world is not getting saved. We are competing with the god of this age...and he offers quite a bit of pleasure in return for their souls. More importantly, there are a lot of people who don't know that they need to be saved to begin with! Then we have preachers who teach an arrogant, self-centered gospel that is devoid of anything close to the heart of Christ. We have well-meaning "prophets" who are so arrogant in their attempt to be considered a "prophet" by others that they are unaware that their "words" are filled with their own ideas rather than the Word of God. We have churches that don't preach the Word.

Most importantly (and telling), we have "Christians" who simply do not know Christ. I heard a message by David Wilkerson once where he mentions a well-known minister of a large American Pentecostal congregation who admitted to having not prayed in over a year. Wow! This man bragged about leading souls to Christ...but didn't truly know Christ for himself! What a miserable state! When I heard that, I just wondered how many "prophets" had given this man a "word" about all of the great things that he had been doing. Even more, I wondered how many other preachers were just like him. I know that I have met people who appeared to be strong believers...preaching against sin...giving "words"...yet they themselves later admitted that they were "lost" in sin.

Yeah, this world needs Jesus. The reasons that this world is not finding Jesus are numerous...but the solution is still so simple. We need to know Jesus Christ...in truth.

:-)

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Christopher

Hey Frank

I have noticed that you have posted about these political news people a few times over the last week in a couple of threads. Again you wrote: If you know nothing of Rush Limbaugh and his cohorts brother, then perhaps you should not comment? Enough to say that they have caused enormous damage to conservative Christians who idolize them.
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It does seem clear that these people have really caused you some irritation and its clear you do not like them. May I ask have you ever prayed for any of these three people you keep mentioning? I ask because they are lost and have need for Jesus to right? They need to repent and cry out to the Lord. Have you ever prayed for them specifically and individually to know Jesus?

Just wondering
rdg

Hey Chris, you write....

"I don't listen to them. I have heard them in the past, but it was extremely rare."

And then you write..."I am familiar with them and some of the things that they say, so I do feel enough to make a comment."

Chris, in any conversation you and I have, this is invariably the way it goes. I am not sure that I can address someone who is constantly shifting. How can you say in one breath that you do not listen to them and then say that you are familiar with what they say and feel qualified to comment? Seeems like double talk Chris.

You go on and write " Then we have preachers who teach an arrogant, self-centered gospel that is devoid of anything close to the heart of Christ. We have well-meaning "prophets" who are so arrogant in their attempt to be considered a "prophet" by others that they are unaware that their "words" are filled with their own ideas rather than the Word of God. We have churches that don't preach the Word."

Yet all along you you critisise others for saying this very same thing. Again, inconsistant. If you have something to say against false prohets in regards to this thread, then I would turn your own comments back on yourself and ask you to be specific. If you have no problems with this particular post, then why the reference again to false prophets? Who is not a false prophet to you Chris? I have given you examples of people that I considered to be prohpetic. Ravenhill, Tozer, Wilkerson and Carter Conlon. You have given no specifics, just general negative statements about false prophets out of context, unless you think there is a context to this particular thread.

As for the pundits that I mentioned, and if anyone remotely follows my posts will know that this is not something that I have said in the last few weeks but have said for years. In fact anyone can go to my site and punch in their names and see what I have written.The original post says it well what they do....

"If I was the Republican Party or Fox News or Talk Radio (each
hungry for more ratings and dollars - these are not Christian
organizations at all) then I would absolutely LOVE the fact that the
Christians are so easy to whip up into a frenzy of Obama-rumors
and Obama-trash-talk. But none of this is godly, is it? It is not
remotely Christian. The early church would have renounced it
utterly. They took no interest in politics. They only cared about
Jesus and His simple gospel. And that is still the only thing that
can save America today. We are being sidetracked."

I have renounced it also for many years, and yes,I agree, the early church would have also renounced it.


One last time brother I will try and get a comment from you on Christians not seeing anyone saved. Now you can blame preachers, as you did above, but its not a preachers job to share the Gospel, its the saints job. 100 million prople in America claiming, not just to be Christians, but to be born again. If each one of these guys saw just one person saved by their personal sharing, and each one of those saved saw just one saved by their personal sharing, then all of America would be saved in the next two years.

Your last point about "Christians," who do not know Christ is the very point of people like Paul Washer and others. Brother, if your bringing people to Christ through your sharing the Gospel, or even one person, then that means you are in the harvest field and God bless you. You would be in the 8%........Frank

Frank wrote:As for the pundits that I mentioned, and if anyone remotely follows my posts will know that this is not something that I have said in the last few weeks but have said for years. In fact anyone can go to my site and punch in their names and see what I have written.The original post says it well what they do....
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So if this was directed toward me and my question that I posted, I don't follow your posts really, just something I picked up in in a few of them. You don't like them its pretty evident:-) And to be honest I have never been to your web site, I tend to stay away from outside web sites for the most part. Anyway I was just asking if you ever prayed for any of these people specifically to come to know Jesus so that they might be saved:-)
IF you were not addressing me at all with your comment then its all good.

was just wondering
rdg

Frank...

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Christopher

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Lee Chapel

Well then get about leading brother/sister!

Let other brothers and sisters who are lead to labor for just, representative rule in our nation do it with your encouragement and prayers!

I'm sure that the founding fathers where accomplishing Gods will in their political labors to establish this constitutional nation. There by in establishing it the gospel has gone forth throughout the earth like never before!

Chapel writes..." if we would all lead just one to Jesus Christ we would have the revival we are praying.
What are we waiting for, someone else to do it for us?"

Amen chapel, everything else is a ditraction. Chris has never forgotton that the Lord gave me a word about Presdient Bush, early in his administarion :-)

Chris, re-read the origonal post brother. Our converstaion is a distraction. Its a tool by the enemy I believe. PM me if you would like to continue our discussion......brother Frank