| Poster | Thread | formidable
Member
Joined: 2004/7/3
Posts: 77
Perth, Australia
| | Re: | | i read a really good book called"2000 years of charismatic christianity by eddie hyatt"
it goes from the apostles to today looking at the gifts of the spirit being used. i believe God always has a remmnent.so if u want a good read i reccomend it.
i speak in tounges it builds u up gets u in touch with the spirit of God.
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scot
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|  2004/7/20 8:52 | Profile | moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632
| | Re: tongues | | Just a thought- if God is in the process of restoring New testament Christianity, wouldn't that also mean restoring everything (including all the gifts in full) to the way it was after Jesus left them and sent the Holy Spirit?
Even though this is not one of my gifts, i have longed for it in prayer sometimes when I knew I had no human words to express what I meant.
In Him, Chanin
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Chanin
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| | 2004/7/20 9:15 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Hi Mike
Quote:
I guess my question would be, 'utter-able' or
'unutterable'? Both? In reference to "allowing my spirit to pray"
There may be links in thought with Rom 8 but I think Clarke is right that this is the Holy Spirit in the context of the rest of the chapter. I've thought more in terms of For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (1Co 2:11 KJV)
However, if my spirit is in communion with His Spirit there may well be things which my spirit could receive but which would baffle my mind. I wish, therefore, that men pray in every place, lifting up kind hands, apart from anger and reasoning; (1Ti 2:8 YLT) This is an interesting and valid translation; makes it sound as though both wrath and reasoning can disqualify our prayer. I sometimes think that we have too much information in prayer, although I am not pleading for ignorance. Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians is at the back of my mind; For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? (1Co 14:14-16 KJV)
I often have a feeling that we are missing something here. The contemporary pattern of tongues in local assemblies does not fit this scenario, and yet the whole of this section is in the context of the public meeting. It is certainly illuminating to see that in each of these references to 'with the spirit' (by which Paul would seem to mean 'in a tongue') is a form of prayer.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2004/7/20 10:34 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Hi Chanin
Quote:
Just a thought- if God is in the process of restoring New testament Christianity, wouldn't that also mean restoring everything (including all the gifts in full) to the way it was after Jesus left them and sent the Holy Spirit?
Why not? This was John Wesley's explanation of the missing gifts...
It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the church for more than two or three centuries We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian, and from a vain imagination of promoting the Christian cause thereby heaped riches, and power, and honor, upon the Christians in general; but in particular upon the Christian clergy. From this time they almost totally ceased; very few instances of the kind were found. The cause of this was not (as has been vulgarly supposed,) "because there was no more occasion for them," because all the world was become Christian. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause was, "the love of many," almost of all Christians, so called, was "waxed cold." The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other Heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his Church, could hardly "find faith upon earth." This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church -- because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left.
John Wesley sermon 'The More Excellent Way'
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2004/7/20 10:49 | Profile | crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | Quote:
This is an interesting and valid translation; makes it sound as though both wrath and reasoning can disqualify our prayer. I sometimes think that we have too much information in prayer, although I am not pleading for ignorance.
Been listening to an old A.W.Tozer message where he touches on this whole business of reasoning while not advocating ignorance as well.
[i]For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.[/i] Isa 55:8,9
Quote:
I often have a feeling that we are missing something here. The contemporary pattern of tongues in local assemblies does not fit this scenario, and yet the whole of this section is in the context of the public meeting. It is certainly illuminating to see that in each of these references to 'with the spirit' (by which Paul would seem to mean 'in a tongue') is a form of prayer.
Yes, sadly my experience was primarily in a 'coaching' session...won't go into it all. But also the whole missing aspect of an interpetor at other times as well (in a public setting) had me pretty sour, actually grieved.
But as far as 'vocalizing' in private, I guess was what I was wondering...
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Mike Balog
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| | 2004/7/20 11:08 | Profile | sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
Just a thought- if God is in the process of restoring New testament Christianity, wouldn't that also mean restoring everything (including all the gifts in full) to the way it was after Jesus left them and sent the Holy Spirit?
Yes Amen sister thats very true but lest us not forget the more excellent things such as unity and love :-) I am praying for a restoration of that before the gifts.. I thought I would share this hymn that speaks of this:
L.M. [b]Primitive Christianity.[/b]
1 HAPPY the souls that first believed,
To Jesus and each other cleaved,
Joined by the unction from above
In mystic fellowship of love.
2 Meek, simple followers of the Lamb,
They lived, and spake, and thought the same;
They joyfully conspired to raise
Their ceaseless sacrifice of praise.
3 With grace abundantly endued,
A pure, believing multitude,
They all were of one heart and soul,
And only love inspired the whole.
4 O what an age of golden days!
O what a choice, peculiar race!
Washed in the Lamb's all-cleansing blood,
Anointed kings and priests to God!
5 Ye different sects, who all declare,
"Lo, here is Christ! " or, "Christ is here!"
Your stronger proofs divinely give,
And show me where the Christians live.
6 The gates of hell cannot prevail;
The church on earth can never fail;
Ah, join me to thy secret ones!
Ah, gather all thy living stones!
7 Scattered o'er all the earth they lie,
Till thou collect them with thine eye,
Draw by the music of thy name,
And charm into a beauteous frame.
8 For this the pleading Spirit groans,
And cries in all thy banished ones;
Greatest of gifts, thy love impart,
And make us of one mind and heart.
9 Join every soul that looks to thee
In bonds of perfect charity;
Now, Lord, the glorious fullness give,
And all in all for ever live!
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/20 11:19 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
HAPPY the souls that first believed,
To Jesus and each other cleaved,
Joined by the unction from above
In mystic fellowship of love.
We sing this Wesley hymn regularly in our local church. Our version has 18 verses and your version has 3 verses that aren't in our version!! What a hymn, those were the days... and why not again?
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2004/7/20 11:51 | Profile | sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
Our version has 18 verses and your version has 3 verses that aren't in our version!! What a hymn
Do you have access to the full version.. or expanded [aplified] version :-P
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/20 11:53 | Profile | moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632
| | Re: gifts | | Quote:
Yes Amen sister thats very true but lest us not forget the more excellent things such as unity and love
Of course, this is the obvious. You know how I feel about love being the most EXCELLENT way since I have talked about it many times. That's why I stated "Just a thought" at the beginning of my post. :-)
in Him, Chanin
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Chanin
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| | 2004/7/20 12:04 | Profile | sermonindex
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Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
Of course, this is the obvious. You know how I feel about love being the most EXCELLENT way since I have talked about it many times. That's why I stated "Just a thought" at the beginning of my post.
:-) I know you know.. hehe just putting it in perspective for other gentle viewers.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/20 12:10 | Profile |
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