| Poster | Thread | MSeaman
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Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan
| | Re: Church of God? (the denomination) | | Ricky,
I have been going to Church of God (Cleveland TN) for almost a year now. I did go to Assembly of God (Springfield MO), but changed. I changed mostly because I wanted to hear the Word being preached. I also like the encouragement for Holiness. Our church isn't the least bit legalistic. Our Pastor is very balanced in the preaching of the Word. His emphasis is always on your relationship with Jesus and the Joy it brings even in trials. As for the gifts of the Spirit. This is the quietest Pentecostal church I have been in...There is no overemphasis on Tongues or that kind of thing.
It is my opinion (and as such, not worth much) that each church is going to be individualistic to some extent based upon its leadership and members. I am glad that you had a chance to talk to the Pastor for yourself.
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Melissa
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|  2008/3/27 11:50 | Profile | wallbuilder
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Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 44
| | Re: | | From what I remember from my A/G Bible college days, both the Assemblies of God and Church of God have their roots from the Azusa outpouring in 1906, which came because of a black man named William Seymour.
Church of God, began first, and is primarily an African American denomination. The Assemblies of God, unfortunately, started its own church after Azusa, apart from church of God and is primarily caucasian. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. |
| | 2008/3/27 17:44 | Profile |
| | Re: Church of God? (the denomination) | | Hey Ricky,
I attended a Church of God, Cleveland TN, for about 2 years. It is where I came to the Lord and was raised by wolves.
Much of what they preached was good. They still preached some degree of holiness and repentance from sin, which I haven't found in AG churches I went to. And their doctrine on paper looks good at first glance.
Many of them are charismatic, complete with over-emphasizing tongues, "dancing in the Spirit" and knocking people over by laying on hands or blowing upon (slain in the Spirit). They would constantly pass around demons through the laying on of hands (and I know they're demons because of the fruit).
It doesn't matter how they were founded, how powerful the revival was, because like all revivals, it has apostasized. They might have more truth than most denominations, but they also have just as much leaven.
A large majority of the denomination embraces TBN, word of faith, health and wealth, prosperity gospel, and name it claim it. And if you want to be a member, chances are, you're going to have to swear before the congregation that you will faithfully tithe 10% of your income to the church.
In my experience, the ones preaching holiness on Sunday were viewing pornography on Monday, and the ones playing in the worship team or singing in the choir were the next nights watching wicked abominations on TV that God hates, while the pastor didn't dare preach against it because his building was in debt and to preach against people's sins so directly would mean he would lose tithe money and ultimately, his steeple house. So holiness would be preached in a generalized manner, rather than straight-forward and applicable, a truly subtle trick of the enemy of men's souls.
I realize that not all of the local fellowships are like this, as others have already said, it varies from church to church, depending on leadership and individual congregations. There are probably still a few genuine brethren here and there. But for the most part, it's the same as any other denomination.
I don't know if you're aware of the ins-and-outs of denominationalism, but I know the Lord won't let me be any part of it with a clear conscience. I've seen too much going on behind the scenes and I'm convinced that if Isaiah or Jeremiah or Peter or Paul were to come back to our modern day, they would rail hard against denominationalism and weep profusely over it because of the leavens and evils that come along with that system and the traditions of men. Is Christ divided?
If you want to be a minister with them, you will have to go through the MIP Program and you will either have to regularly pay tithes with documented proof, or they will revoke your preaching license. And if you ever preach against anything wrong with their denomination they'll revoke your license. And you will have to sign a piece of paper stating that you believe in the Pre-trib rapture. And then a group of "elders" whom you never met will lay hands on you and speak in tongues over you as they ordain you. And chances are, they will appoint you under the care of a "bishop" and if he tells you to do something, and it's not scriptural and you can't do it with a clear conscience, he has a right to revoke your license for not submitting. I could go on and on. But inevitably, you can't get too involved in a denomination without compromising at some point or another, and as for me, dear brother, I'm scared to death to compromise, because that's where deception starts.
My advice to you would be if the Lord is leading you to attend a particular church, and you know it's the Lord, then go for it and stay sensitive to His voice. But if the Lord isn't leading you, then my brother... RUN FROM DENOMINATIONALISM!!! |
| | 2008/3/27 18:26 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
I think that a lot of the snake handlers are Oneness or "Jesus only" and the church of God we are talking about are trinitarian.
I think they are crazy...
Krispy |
| | 2008/3/28 8:51 | | broclint
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Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA
| | Re: errors | | post deleted not worth it
Clint
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Clint Thornton
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| | 2008/3/28 17:48 | Profile | PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: Thanks for the Balance | | It is never wise to generalize in such as way as to cast aspersions upon entire denominations that may, in fact, still have genuine fruit of God in their midst. I know that although the Wesley brothers were run off from the Anglican denomination, never did Wesley write in a disparaging way or cancel out the entire movement as ungodly or satanic - in fact, John Wesley didn't want to separate from the Anglicans; the Methodist church came about instead by default of Anglican restistance to Wesley.
We need to be wise and balanced in all we do or say. Human impulse is to immediately decimate and carpet-bomb the whole when only a portion of undesirableness or localized error may be present. If we went ahead and did this, we would have to destroy every single fellowship, every single house church and assembly that ever congregated under the banner of Christ, right down to the original twelve apostles who were in themselves also flawed. God's way is to always seek to salvage the redeemable, and there is no better example of this than to look inside each of our hearts. If the Church of God be so terrible, if the Assemblies of God be so horrific [i]as a whole[/i] as to be utterly cast to the wayside, what then can be said of us, with all our secret heart-sins, and with all our numerous faults?
(edit) Oh brother, you've deleted your post! I'm sorry to see this. There were good things in it.
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2008/3/28 18:53 | Profile | mamaluk
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Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524
| | Re: | | Quote:
But inevitably, you can't get too involved in a denomination without compromising at some point or another, and as for me, dear brother, I'm scared to death to compromise, because that's where deception starts.
My advice to you would be if the Lord is leading you to attend a particular church, and you know it's the Lord, then go for it and stay sensitive to His voice. But if the Lord isn't leading you, then my brother... RUN FROM DENOMINATIONALISM!!!
Brother Josef(?)I agree with you here as I often see sectarianism as sin. I can also agree with what brother Paul said as to excercise wisdom and balance in light of associating ourselves with various "denominations". In a sense, it's true, sinners fellowshiping with saved sinners, to some extent..we have to sort of make the best of what's available. True Christian fellowship has to first and foremost abide by biblical principles. One comes to mind is the "unequal yoke" precept.
To yoke ourselves with any of the organized religious group in Christendom, just for the sake of "fellowship",can be most problematic. While fellowship with believers/saved sinners who share their lives in Christ as the sole Leader/Pastor, and Scripture as the sole authority,(presuming with accurate interpretation and obedience),has to be a biblical and safe ground to tread on, especially in the present depraved age.
I do reckon that we all are sinners, even at the apex of our own holiness, but to knowingly compromise and violate what's explicit in Scripture,or being forced to compliance brought on by the pressure from some self-ordained and self-serving folks/groups, or perhaps even demonically influenced folks, we would only end up with a troubling conscience and offending The Lord.
I firmly believe that when we love God enough to be willing to obey whatever it is, God will, most definitelty will, guide us and bring us to where HE wants us,regardless of circumstances and situations, even though we might have to make some sacrifices, such as being an outcast, or end up being very lonely for some periods of time,but during those loneliest moments, from experience, I know that our Lord does draw us closer to Him
We should often remind ourselves with the examples set by Noah, Moses, Paul...and for sure, our blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
just a few thoughts,
mamaluk
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| | 2008/3/28 22:01 | Profile | dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132
| | Re: | | I was going to post to Josef Urban about alot of errors in his tearing down the Church of God but to be honest there's so much anger and bitterness in your words brother I really don't feel like setting myself up for the pain in the neck it'll cause. I would suggest that you carefully consider reading Revelation on the seven churches. From organized home churches to denominations they all will fall into these seven somewhere.
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D.Miller
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| | 2008/3/28 23:33 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Dohzman,
I have not an ounce of bitterness in my heart against anybody. I love the people at my old church and am still moved to pray for them from time to time, especially my old pastor, who sadly got sucked into TBN's "another gospel".
Paul pronounced judgment on adulterers and covetous shepherds in the church and exposed them for what they are, praying for their repentance and pleading with them in love.
I realize there will always be errors, but this is a far cry from blatant anti-scriptural practices that the Bible itself condemns. A denomination is not a church. A local fellowship of born again believers (at least a significant portion of the believers having truly tasted the grace of God) who Christ has assembled is a local Church. And then there is the world-wide Church universal, the membership role being the Lamb's Book of Life. But there is no scriptural precedence for calling an organization run like a business "the church". A denomination is not the church. It's a organization of man, run by a book of rules (bi-laws) that's not the Bible.
As I said in my first post, I know the Lord has a remnant in nearly every evangelical denomination. But this doesn't condone that denomination as a whole or make it right. |
| | 2008/3/29 0:31 | | broclint
Member
Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA
| | Re: | | I deleted my last post but decided to put it back in due to the remarks of Brother Paul and Brother Dohzman that support precisely my feelings on the matter... and to refute some obvious errors:
Quote:
Wallbuilder: From what I remember from my A/G Bible college days, both the Assemblies of God and Church of God have their roots from the Azusa outpouring in 1906, which came because of a black man named William Seymour.
Church of God, began first, and is primarily an African American denomination. The Assemblies of God, unfortunately, started its own church after Azusa, apart from church of God and is primarily caucasian. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
You stand corrected. Actually the Church of God in Christ is the predominately black congregation and started after the Azuza Street revival. The Church of God is the oldest classical Pentecostal denomination in the world, having started in 1886 and was a part of the revival that swept the nation in which the Azuza Street revival was at the tail end of it. You can read Dr. Edwin Orrs writings or hear his messages regarding revivals on this site for confirmation.
Quote:
Josef_Urban: I attended a Church of God, Cleveland TN, for about 2 years. It is where I came to the Lord and was raised by wolves.
A large majority of the denomination embraces TBN, word of faith, health and wealth, prosperity gospel, and name it claim it. And if you want to be a member, chances are, you're going to have to swear before the congregation that you will faithfully tithe 10% of your income to the church.
That is simply a generalization that cannot be supported. And how would you know from attending one church for 2 years? The Church of God as a matter of fact has had the teaching from its inception against members swearing or taking and oath in keeping with the scripture let your yea, be yea. We do not swear even in court by simply affirm to tell the truth. Tithing is certainly not a requirement of becoming a member and in fact the procedure for taking in members regarding finances is simply this statement: Are you willing to support the church with our attendance and temporal means to the best of your ability as the Lord prospers you? That is one of nine questions to which the applicant for membership answers in the affirmative. No one is barred from attending member or not. And as far as a large majority embracing TBN
that depends upon the local church and its pastor
certainly there are plenty of us who have repudiated TBN, PTL, Jimmy Swaggart and the whole lot of charismata minus holy living since the onset of all of it.
Quote:
Josef: In my experience, the ones preaching holiness on Sunday were viewing pornography on Monday, and the ones playing in the worship team or singing in the choir were the next nights watching wicked abominations on TV that God hates, while the pastor didn't dare preach against it because his building was in debt and to preach against people's sins so directly would mean he would lose tithe money and ultimately, his steeple house. So holiness would be preached in a generalized manner, rather than straight-forward and applicable, a truly subtle trick of the enemy of men's souls.
Again that is a very unfair generalization based upon a very limited experience
and certainly one that could as well be applied to any denomination or any non-denomination. And do you know these allegations as fact or are you simply slandering for the sake of making a point?
In fact all your suggestions about not being in a denomination are simply ludicrous logically. There is not a church anywhere that does not have some mortal human being at the helm of it regardless of how spiritual he or she claims to be. And that being so, there is not a church regardless of whether they call themselves non-denominational,or independant, that is not subject to error. In fact when there is not a system of government and checks and balances by more than one head huncho, the propensity for corruption is far more prevalent than if you have a group of people that serve to keep one individual from dominating. And the truth is that the exact same generalizations could be made for those churches where nobody tells me what to preach, what to teach, how to spend my money, and how to live my life except God who have no checks and balances very easily become, (and in this area are most definitely are) cults built around one man and his convictions. I would not dare generalize and say they are all that way, just many in this area
it is my way or the highway
and the guy in charge is an Elmer Gantry to all the women. To generalize about all the evils of a denomination is to overlook the obvious truism that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely whether it is in one man or in many men at the top.
Quote:
Josef: And if you ever preach against anything wrong with their denomination they'll revoke your license. And you will have to sign a piece of paper stating that you believe in the Pre-trib rapture. And then a group of "elders" whom you never met will lay hands on you and speak in tongues over you as they ordain you.
Again this is simply a false statement. The doctrinal position of the church since its inception has been: Article 13, Declaration of Faith; We believe in the premillennial second coming of Jesus; first, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air; second, to reign on the earth a thousand years. Rapture is not mentioned in the teachings, period. I have preached post tribulation second coming of the Lord for 20 years, many messages which were on the radio that covered not only the whole district but reached into several other church districts as well. I have never one time been confronted on the issue by another Church of God pastor, or District Overseer or State Overseer, although several evangelists tried to debate the issue with very little success. As for saying anything against the denomination, that is patently false also. Several pastors, and associate pastors and ministers, including myself have met with committees from the international headquarters and very vocally stated objections to things going on in the church. I have written several letters to headquarters regarding things that were wrong including warning about the dangers many years ago of associating with Jimmy Swaggart and how that was simply draining our local churches
and the danger of any man being put on a pedestal
I was proven right. I wrote regarding the association by some of our ministers with PTL even that far back, and later with TBN. It is ridiculous to say that there can be no criticism of issues in the church. That is precisely what the General Assemblies are all about
one week every two years with ministers and laity from all over the world making motions and giving speeches regarding anything that they think is going wrong. They have the whole time between assemblies to bring the matters to the agenda for discussion. The problem is that as in all the churches, the spirit of revival has ebbed so low and the majority rules
that there has been a whole host of things passed that never should have been passed.
As for a bunch of elders whom you never met praying over you in tongues
I dont have a clue where you saw this happen, but I assure you, your generalization is not true.
Quote:
Josef: But inevitably, you can't get too involved in a denomination without compromising at some point or another, and as for me, dear brother, I'm scared to death to compromise, because that's where deception starts.
Again I believe that is a generalization that is simply not true. There may well be a time when I am kicked out of the denomination, but that threat does not bother me in the least. I thank God that the pastor that served before me preached here for over 40 years. His reputation, his stand for Christ, his exemplary life and the fruit of his ministry certainly did not leave him without attack, but they were afraid to touch his ministry or this church... all they would have gained would have been an empty building. There are those like John Wesley, like Charles Spurgeon, like Charles Finney and many, many others who preached trying to bring reform in their denominations, and in the process were excluded from them. You certainly do not have to compromise period regardless of what it costs.
There is just a matter of integrity that is involved your post. I suggest you should check out all the facts rather than try to extrapolate your experience into making such sweeping charges. You have missed quite a few godly men and godly churches in your charge. And I say this candidly, the same thing would be true if it were any number of churches that you could name. If the doctrine is corrupt, then that doctrine certainly should be challenged, but it is impossible to make a sweeping judgment for the Baptists, the Church of God, the Assembly of God, all of which are denominations, that makes compromisers and those who preach holiness in a generalized way out of a whole organization. The corruption is in man and it may be one man at the top of his little house church or independant church or many men at the top of a denomination, but each of us will have to give account of himself to God.
I do recognize the fact that you did say, I realize that not all of the local fellowships are like this, as others have already said, it varies from church to church, depending on leadership and individual congregations. There are probably still a few genuine brethren here and there. But for the most part, it's the same as any other denomination. At least for that candid statement, I am grateful.
Clint
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Clint Thornton
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| | 2008/3/29 10:08 | Profile |
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