| Poster | Thread | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: A wretched man ... | | Quote:
Dying to sin is a process, a shedding of the old life for the new, and the only one who can do it is not us, but the Holy Spirit. We cooperate, we struggle, and if we think we are done, we fool ourselves, for temptation will be knocking at the door unto death, and falling to the sins of the body is only a prerequisite for falling on your knees before God, and asking for His promised mercy.
Else Christ is come in vain.
Well said, if I may;
We cooperate
we struggle
we fool ourselves
This is where I am somewhat going with all this. Trying to not exert so much a one sided argument as to just get down to the heart and honesty of the matter.
One of the great things about SI is how it, unintentionally I might add, tends to break up the camps by other considerations. Be that as it may, will come along side what I perceive of an 'opposing view' for lack of a better term. I think there is a great and very understandable fear that makes this all the more difficult to divest due to this day and age's absolute abuse of license. Many churches ought to have a large banner hanging over the entrance in big, bold letters;
[b]What then?
Shall we sin?
Because we are not under the law,
But under grace?
[i]God forbid![/i][/b]
It is applicable to so much teaching and preaching, that launch off to what so often a new babe might not full well understand. One way or another it comes out something along the lines of; [i]"How far can I go with this before I am 'sinning'?"[/i]
Much more could and should be said towards that.
Some of the things still churning about as I am thinking this all through again.
The back slider. "Where" did he go?
_________________
Mike Balog
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|  2007/12/27 10:03 | Profile | tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
Ah, but I do believe Him, and take Him at His Word. My Spirit is free because of what Jesus did, and my heart is clean because I reconcile it daily, sometimes hourly, with Him.
And this body of death? I will not claim perfection over sin, and no one should even suggest that it is capable of being completely done, when only Jesus could do it.
Dying to sin is a process, a shedding of the old life for the new, and the only one who can do it is not us, but the Holy Spirit. We cooperate, we struggle, and if we think we are done, we fool ourselves, for temptation will be knocking at the door unto death, and falling to the sins of the body is only a prerequisite for falling on your knees before God, and asking for His promised mercy.
Is this to say
yes
to the original question? That we will always(to some level) be wretched?
That we may enjoy victory for a time
but will ultimately always fall(fail)
never to attain complete victory in this earthly body?
This thread is of great interest to me. I was delivered from so much, but I still struggle greatly in others
and it hurts.
The closer I get to God the more I see just how utterly despicable my natural self is. I know that apart from His grace I would make the worst we can imagine look absolutely innocent.
Am I a wretched man
still?
At times I fear this is the truth. When I fall short I cry out to be delivered from this cursed state. I fight
and it truly is war. I get tired and just want to be instantaneously delivered from my struggles
but it doesnt happen. I know I must continue to fight.
Other times
when I am face down on the floor(fetal position)
completely broken
crying out to Him
I feel an overwhelming peace come over me. A peace that comes from Jesus. A peace that transcends all understanding. A peace that comes from standing beside Jesus as He tells His father he died for me.
Will I ever be victorious while in this body of death? (not talking about blatant sin)
Are we to always have an understanding of our true state of wretchedness, but be secure in knowing that victory was achieved on our behalf by Christ
nothing to boast about on our own, for it is through Christ that we have victory?
Thanks Forrest for your post.
And to Mike for such an intersting thread.
_________________
TJ
|
| | 2007/12/27 10:32 | Profile | Lowly
Member
Joined: 2007/10/13
Posts: 41
| | Re: | | Is not this part of the hope of receiving our inheritance?
Oh that on that day we will receive the incorruptible body! Now we must recognize that we dwell in the corruptible one, but praise God He has not left us helpless but has furnished us with everything we need for life and godliness.
But it is by His divine power. He has made all things available to us. His grace gives us continual access, as we walk, and stumble, struggle, fail..............we recognize our corruptibleness, and seek diligently the weapons of warfare, the armor of God, being filled with the Spirit........all that the Lord has given to us as His adopted children.
I used to fail and agonize over this wretched man that I am, and I would struggle in shame before my Heavenly Father, bitterly.............Oh how He has shown to me mercy and grace............He has led me into that rest.................and because of Him I am having victory over this flesh.
Please know that I am speaking of a present action, not a completed work as in the now. What the Lord has done is finished.
In His amazing love,
Lowly |
| | 2007/12/27 10:36 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: Pilgrim's Progress, Part 2 | | Quote:
Ginny, isn't the second part of Pilgrims Progress ... I went and looked it up, recall that it continued on about his wife (the narrative)
You are right: part 2 is the story of Christian's wife and their children as they embark on their journey to the Celestial City. Part 1 needs to be read and understood before Part 2 can be appreciated. Actually part 2 has more drama, if that is possible, then part 1. (Of course, I am reading the "The New Amplified" version so my evaluation may not be accurate.)
Perhaps one reason you laid it aside is because initially it deals with the journey of a mother and her children? If you can overcome that block, you will find other males joining them on their pilgrimage and the assistance they rendered to this family. The roles these males played in the story appealed to the boys in my SS class.
The reason I am using this in Sunday School is that the quarterlies we were given to use are geared for older children. A junior-aged child needs a story to carry the doctrine and these books were about doctrine only. Tell a child a story and then teach him/her about how the story illustrates the doctrine and they will get it and remember it. Otherwise, you will see symptoms of boredom. So, to keep the class' attention, engage their imagination, I acquired "Pilgrim's Progress, (Part 1)" in flannel board and told them this story. They loved it. After finishing this, I went to Part 2. Now the quarterlies have stories and I will focus on it shortly. Now this will become another challenge because I have a child who is afflicted with a severe case of dyslexia. If I use traditional methods, he hides behind the book and is out of it. If I tell the story, using gestures, drama, etc., he sits up and listens. So, my entire presentation is geared to reaching this boy and the others do not mind and are loving it - yes, I have to think outside the box and be unconventional, hence my use of "Pilgrim's Progress" in Sunday School.
Happy reading!
ginnyrose
_________________
Sandra Miller
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| | 2007/12/27 10:37 | Profile |
| | Re: Am I a wretched man ... still? | | Haven't had time to read this whole thread yet, but just wrote a few things on the "How is everyone doing spiritually?" thread (general topics, that are relevant. Have said similar things before from time to time, but the "Alice Through the Looking Glass" illustration was a new one!
Here are some bits from that thread:
..............................................................
[color=330000] We don't have to do it, we don't have to "measure up", that way lies futile striving and despair. What we need is to increasingly trust HIM, instead of ourselves!
It's like learning to float on water. If you try to sit up and see where you're going, and how you're doing, you sink; if you abandon yourself to the water you float.
But it's an active abandonment, not passive: activity in maintaining that abandonment by His grace, instead of trusting in our own success or failure.
The Lord told me recently that I need to be in a closer relationship to Him, and that I was afraid of that closeness. But He also said that, of myself, I can't get there, can't get rid of that fear of spiritual intimacy with Him. Therefore I'm to trust Him to deal with the fear and all that goes with it.
I know He will do it!
Having to wait and long for, and fail, is part of the process of coming into that place of trust.
REST! We don't get there if we strive, we do get there if we rest (Hebrews 4)!
Struggled with it for many years - the best I could manage on my own was striving to [i]stop[/i] striving. Which doesn't work either!
A bit like Alice Through the Looking Glass, if anyone's read the book. She was trying to get into the garden from the house, but the more she tried to get away from the house by taking paths that seemed to lead in the right direction the more she kept getting back there. Because everything in the looking-glass world was the opposite from what she was used to. Just as spiritual principles are opposite from what we do naturally. Like striving and working our guts out (excuse the vulgar expression but can't think of a better offhand!) to achieve success.
Story of my life too, until recently! [b]For us, as Christians, the question is how to get from the end of Romans 7 to the beginning of Romans 8![/b]
In "Alice" the answer came when, in despair of ever getting there, she started walking back [i]towards[/i] the house - and suddenly found herself in the garden with no problem!
And what better way to end than part of the song about a garden!
Songs 4:[/color]
[color=990000]12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
16 Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.[/color]
[color=330000]chapter 5:1[/color] [color=990000]I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved.[/color]
[color=330000]Linked with John 7:[/color]
[color=990000]37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 [b]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water[/b].[/color]
[color=330000]Can He not unlock those rivers of living water, that abundant fruitfulness, that He has put within all of us who are truly His?[/color]
in Him
Jeannette |
| | 2007/12/27 13:46 | | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Wretch | | Quote:
Perhaps one reason you laid it aside is because initially it deals with the journey of a mother and her children?
Good question ... I don't recall exactly sister but that very well may have been a possibility. Interesting to think back on the time I first read it and where my head is now. Looking forward to it frankly and wondering just why didn't it finish it in the first place ...
Very, very cool what you are doing there with all this. Very precious...
_________________
Mike Balog
|
| | 2007/12/27 15:32 | Profile | UniqueWebRev
Member
Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California
| | Re: A Wretched Man...Still! | | UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:
Dying to sin is a process, a shedding of the old life for the new, and the only one who can do it is not us, but the Holy Spirit. We cooperate, we struggle, and if we think we are done, we fool ourselves, for temptation will be knocking at the door unto death, and falling to the sins of the body is only a prerequisite for falling on your knees before God, and asking for His promised mercy.
Else Christ is come in vain.
crsschk said:
Quote:
Well said, if I may;
We cooperate
we struggle
we fool ourselves
This is where I am somewhat going with all this. Trying to not exert so much a one sided argument as to just get down to the heart and honesty of the matter....
I think there is a great and very understandable fear that makes this all the more difficult to divest due to this day and age's absolute abuse of license. Many churches ought to have a large banner hanging over the entrance in big, bold letters;
[b]What then?
Shall we sin?
Because we are not under the law,
But under grace?
[i]God forbid![/i][/b]
AMEN! Grace is not about license to sin, but to cover us from judgement because we cannot be perfect (mature and complete) until we are in a glorified body.
And with the Holy Spirit watching over us, speaking to us, convicting us each time we fall short, we struggle all the harder to REFRAIN from sin. Alas, that this body of death is literally fallen, and thus programmed toward pride, rebellion and selfishness.
But as we press on (fight towards) to the prize Paul speaks of, we, with the help of the Holy Spirit do make progress, and sin less habitual sins, those actions born of our hurts and pains and human desires. But we must alway press on.
We can not let up in the struggle to become more like Christ. The Holy Spirit, in His mercy, shows us from time to time that we are succeeding in this small way and that, and for a moment, an hour, a day, we have perfect peace, Victory in the flesh as well as in spirit.
crsschk wrote:
Quote:
It is applicable to so much teaching and preaching, that launch off to what so often a new babe might not full well understand. One way or another it comes out something along the lines of; [i]"How far can I go with this before I am 'sinning'?"[/i]
We cannot go far WITHOUT sinning, alas. Our human natures are so ready to take the lead over our minds and hearts. Until we can watch each word, and cultivate our behavior to closely resemble Christ's walk on the earth, in love and compassion for others, and an awed reverence for the Father, striving to show our love by our obedience, we will not even have those short blessed times of victory in the body.
crsschk said:
Quote:
Much more could and should be said towards that.
Some of the things still churning about as I am thinking this all through again.
The back slider. "Where" did he go?
Ah, the ones that have chosen to fall, in rebellion against the Lord's grace? They have a sad lot, and cause much suffering to themselves and others, as they struggle to make sense of our insane world, and the desire to do what THEY want to do, instead of what GOD wants them to do.
But even so, Christ died for their sins too, and knew every mistake they would make. And like the prodigal son, God gives grace for them to come to their senses, for it is not necessarily a matter of unbelief in God, but a rebellion against submission to God, a childish tantrum thrown, the 'terrible twos', as when a child of God is saying, "I will do it MY way!".
We all rebel...it's just sometimes more evident in others. And for those that we know who have seemingly turned away from God, we can pray, and ask earnestly that the Holy Spirit will intervene, and set them going forward on the straight and narrow path again.
Jesus has the patience to wait until circumstance make it possible for a renewal of the heart towards Christ, using His rod and staff to chastise and teach the rebellious or foolish lambs in His flock. And because it is only God who change man through the Holy Spirit, we all need to turn over the straying lambs to the Shepherd, pray for them, and know that God will move in His own timing.
Blessings,
Forrest
_________________
Forrest Anderson
|
| | 2007/12/27 21:20 | Profile | UniqueWebRev
Member
Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California
| | Re: A Wretched Man...Still! | | UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
...Dying to sin is a process, a shedding of the old life for the new, and the only one who can do it is not us, but the Holy Spirit. We cooperate, we struggle, and if we think we are done, we fool ourselves, for temptation will be knocking at the door unto death, and falling to the sins of the body is only a prerequisite for falling on your knees before God, and asking for His promised mercy.
tjservant wrote:
Quote:
Is this to say
yes
to the original question? That we will always(to some level) be wretched?
That we may enjoy victory for a time
but will ultimately always fall(fail)
never to attain complete victory in this earthly body?...Will I ever be victorious while in this body of death? (not talking about blatant sin)
Are we to always have an understanding of our true state of wretchedness, but be secure in knowing that victory was achieved on our behalf by Christ
nothing to boast about on our own, for it is through Christ that we have victory?
Thanks Forrest for your post.
And to Mike for such an intersting thread.
TJ,
The farther we go towards God, the narrower the path becomes. The more we succeed in conquering our imperfections, and dying to the desires of the flesh, the more fierce and diabolical the attacks of the enemy.
We are stronger in Christ, and the times of victory in this life and rest from struggle are more evident, but they do not last long.
God allows this that we might be tried and tested in the fire of tribulation of this life.
Our struggle to obey Christ's commandments to love God, and love one another is the one thing that WE can do for Jesus, for it is by obedience that we show our love. We will get better at it day by day, a little here, and a little there, because the Holy Spirit indwells us to enable us to succeed more and more.
It is written, we are not to 'be weary in well doing'. This is not to say that we will not tire, and need to rest, and lick our wounds, and recover to fight another day. Yet the farther we go into Christ, the more we are wrapped in His love, given favor and blessing to continue the fight.
Within the daily fighting, struggling, and pressing onwards IS our victory, and we sin less frequently in our habitual sins, yet we become more aware of being still not yet perfect.
The struggle to get yet more mature and complete in obedience to Christ becomes not falling in obvious ways as when we were babes in Christ, but in the finer points of love, patience, kindness, graciousness, charity and humility during each step of our walk.
We do not always win every day, but we know we are conquering our Self, with the help of the Holy Spirit. Our true Rest awaits us in the Kingdom of God, in gloriefied bodies that are delivered from the pressures of being human, and fallen, and protected from the Tempter forever, for we are Christ's own.
Blessings,
Forrest
_________________
Forrest Anderson
|
| | 2007/12/27 22:17 | Profile | tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
We do not always win every day, but we know we are conquering our Self, with the help of the Holy Spirit. Our true Rest awaits us in the Kingdom of God, in gloriefied bodies that are delivered from the pressures of being human, and fallen, and protected from the Tempter forever, for we are Christ's own.
Amen.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply sister.
_________________
TJ
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| | 2007/12/27 22:44 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | We know that Christ was predestinated to be our conformity. No predestination to salvation or not to salvation, but to be conformity to Christ the first born.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
The C&S gang is in God's hands and we are being conformed by these circumstances and situations, learning to be conformed to the Christ that is in us.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Thank you Forest for such great truth, revealed by the Holy Spirit to those that are in His Plan of Christ in us the Hope of Glory.
In Christ: Phillip
_________________
Phillip
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| | 2007/12/29 1:00 | Profile |
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