_________________
Bill

Bro Krisp you wrote;
"My previous post was only in reference to the nausiating "American Church-bashing" that occurs on this forum all the time."


--- Bro Krisp i'm truly sorry for your, or anyone elses discomfort, over what you call "nausiating American Church-bashing" on the SI Forum, and tho i don't necessarily agree with your observation for the greater part (because i think there's more critical concern displayed than bashing), really what would you expect of a web-site founded on, and dedicated to REVIVAL - that in itself points out to the fact that most who'd frequent this site aren't gonna be jumping up and down about how great we are in majority as Christ Church here in AMERICA ... Some of us on this site are very content with ourselves and how things are, just as some of us have a "they" mentality when it comes to indentifying with the Body because they see themselves doing alright in their own little part of the spiritual anatomy, but Paul says that we're all in this together, and as has been pointed out before with Israel when God got fed up with the majority of the "but" sitters even the faithful remnant was affected by His Divine displeasure and correction of the nation ...

i know that in many instances some folk on SI see others as way over the top, just as those who may be percieved as way over the top see some others as frivilous in the faith and not serious enough about the state of affairs of Christians here in the US ... Hey so be it, but as i said to you on another thread there's room for us all in the Body, we all need one another according to scripture, perhaps in many ways to tone down those of us who may be way past God in the fervor of what we do, and to tune up those of us who are way under-performing ... Also as i said before i'd rather be in a group of saints prone to the former, having to be toned down, than to the latter having to be tuned up, as the latter are far more pre-occupied with what nauseats them than the former who are way more concerned with what nauseats Him ...

[b]Rev.3[/b]
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Bear with me bro, in just a little while longer if He proves me to be one way over the top in some weird personal zealousness, there will gladly be one less of those nauseating American Church bashers here on SI Forum :-D ...

To God be all glory, praise and honor! ---

I think what I'm expressing here is a weariness of the constant negativity. Dont get me wrong, we should always speak the truth, and many call that "negative". I just wonder if at times folks here are so busy pointing out all of the negative things in the Body of Christ that they completely ignore the positives. I think it gets back to a matter of balance. Even Jesus, when He addressed the churches in Revelation started each critique with some very positive observations before He launched into "... but this I have against you." Most of us here dont even do that... we just condemn condemn condemn... The American Church is often called Laodecia, and I believe it's true. But even the One whom we are to imitate found positive things to say to those folks before He lit into them.

I've noticed I've been extremely critical of anything and everything... and I dont want to be. And it effects my outlook too. It effects my joy.

Krispy

Bro Krisp you wrote;

"The American Church is often called Laodecia, and I believe it's true. But even the One whom we are to imitate found positive things to say to those folks before He lit into them."


--- Uhhh ... in reading the passage i think you'll find He had nothing "positive" to say about self absorbed, self condoned and self commending Laodicea until He gets to the points of what awaits them if they "REPENT" ...

[b]Rev.3[/b]
[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
[18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Bro Krisp you wrote;
"I've noticed I've been extremely critical of anything and everything... and I dont want to be. And it effects my outlook too. It effects my joy."

--- So don't be ... Be critical of only the things you believe our Lord is pointing out to you, and i can tell you from experience He starts with you ... i've always prayed to Him that He'd make me exacly what He wants me to be, even when i didn't really mean it, even when i've been scared to death of just what that might cost me in the "self" department, but above all else i do really want to see everything thru His eyes, because that's the only way i can know with assurity His truth that sets me free in all matters ... So ...

Are you sure it affects your "joy" (which is derived from being pleasing in the things of our Lord), or your "happiness" (which is derived from being pleasing in the things of our selves) ...
No need to answer, just asking ... This may sound utterly ridiculous but i'm finding the more unhappiness my "old man" experiences in being steered away from the concerns of this world, the more "joy" i have in my "new man" with becoming even more concerned with the things of our Lord ... i can experience the "joy" of our Lord even in His correction, and in actuality because of it because it serves as living proof of His connectedness to me, but my "self" never experiences happiness in such ... When in fact our Lord begins to pull the rose colored glasses away from our eyes, so that we may see our/the ugly realities we try to avoid, self happines suffers greatest, and it takes a while to come to the "joy" of His stark truth (eye salve) setting us free ...

Self centered faulty outlook is Laodicea's major sin ---

Even tho I have read that scripture hundreds of times, even I dont always get it right. :-) But having said that, I still see Jesus handing out an olive branch saying "Come back to me...".

It's getting so that around here Jesus is the [b]only[/b] one holding out an olive branch. The rest of us, myself included, are generally not. I think for some it's a power kick to condemn everything we come in contact with.

Somethings need to be judged and confronted. I'm not saying that at all... but what I am saying is that the thing that is missing from most of us here is grace, mercy and love.

Krispy

_________________
Bill

Greg,
I am scared to say this and people will probably think that I am crazy, but God has given me the exact same scriptures and message that he has given you several times in the last several months. I can look in my prayer journal and give you the exact dates. This burden is very heavy on my heart, and the last thing that I want to see happen. I pray that it will never happen, but America has grown spiritually lazy and has forgotten that God is the provider of everything. It is only by His mercy and grace that we exist at all. When I have tried to tell people this in the past, they just look at me and say the economy is doing great and everything is fine. For me, reading your message was like a life-raft, because it means that God is telling it to someone else and not just me so maybe I am actually hearing what God is saying and am not crazy. :-)

Greg,
I looked in my journal to see when the last time was and what scriptures. It was 11/24/07 and the scriptures were Jeremiah 5:21-31 and Isaiah 25.

AmazedbyGod

Hi Greg...

I will certainly consider and pray in regards to this word. I am glad that you mentioned the account of Jonah. I truly believe that the JUSTICE of God (and even the LAWS of nature) can become gracefully constrained by the cries of the saints. This is true whether those cries come from the people themselves (as was the case in Nineveh) or from the righteous (as was the case with Abraham concerning Sodom -- if 10 righteous had been found).

Such a word (regardless of whether it is real or supposed) can be heavily burdensome. The word that you uttered, along with the one burdened upon other brethren (such as "Rahman" and "Ironman") can feel overwhelming at times. It is never popular to decry disaster. It is probably just as burdensome as those who preach against blatant sin in a "[i]Don't judge me![/i]" Church.

It has been about 35 years since David Wilkerson wrote [i]The Vision[/i]. It has been at least a dozen years since he revealed his dream of "a thousand fires burning simultaneously in New York." While many of the things uttered have not come to pass, this fact doesn’t preclude them from being correct. It just means that the word has not yet been fulfilled.

I’m often reminded of Simeon, the man to whom was revealed that he would not die before seeing the Lord’s Christ (Luke 2:25-35). We are never told just how long it was between his reception of this “word” and his sudden revelation of baby Jesus at the temple. Was it a year, five years or fifty years? Alas, we will never know (this side of eternity)! But it was certainly a life-changing burden, to the point of relief when it was fulfilled (the guy was relieved enough to die in peace – verse 29).

On the other hand, I feel that the story of Jonah and Nineveh is extremely important to anyone who receives a word of judgment. What was the point(s) of the inclusion of this account in the Word of God? Was it simply to remind us to preach whatever God tells us – even if our reputation can suffer as a result (4:1-3)? Or was it to remind us of the Lord’s love and value of human life (4:9-11)? Was it to demonstrate that the world is often more merciful than the Church (1:11-16)? Was it to demonstrate that the Lord can “repent” of what his justice requires (3:10)? Was it to demonstrate that an ENTIRE sinful kingdom can turn to the Lord in true repentance (3:3:9)?

I read a fictional story once about an individual who “prophesied” about the fall of the Roman Empire. It never happened during his lifetime. It never happened during the lifetimes of his children. It never happened during the lifetimes of his grandchildren. In fact, the Roman Empire [i]thrived[/i] for over another thousand years. However, 1300 years later, this “prophecy” was finally fulfilled. This man’s descendants felt vindicated with a “[i]I told you so[/i]” type of attitude.

When will America fall? I don’t know. By prayer, I hope that God spares this nation. By prayer, I hope that this nation turns BACK to God (yes, back is a selected word) and experiences a third “Great Awakening.” Would God smite this nation as he did Sodom? I am currently under the impression that if God (in the days preceding the Old Covenant) would have spared a twin city as despicable as Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of [u]ten[/u] righteous men, then He would spare any American city for the sake of ten righteous men. I suspect that even New York, with its terrible tolerance for blatant sin, has at least ten righteous men attending Times Square Church. God has withheld His wrath from cities as sinful as Pyong Yang (the capital of North Korea) – where Christians are still tortured under the forced atheism of a communist tyrant. God has even withheld His judgment from cities in the Muslim world that have persecuted believers for centuries. Why? Why would God NOT pour out his wrath upon cities that have not only continued in sin, but have spilled the blood of believers? Is it possible that there exists a remnant of righteous believers amongst a sinful land?

While God might prevent Himself from pouring out wrathful justice, He still could allow the nations and cities of this world to fall according to their own human-caused consequences. The Third Reich, with its disgusting views of racial and political superiority and hatred for Jews, did not fall as a result of God pouring out fire [i]from Heaven[/i]. God simply allowed nations to rise up against that empire. The Soviet Union didn’t fall from God’s wrath upon a cold and brutal atheistic form of government. Rather, the people quietly revolted in a desire for personal liberty. Empires have fallen throughout history without fireballs, economic depression, or even conquering armies. Sometimes, an empire falls simply out of the complacency of its leadership. The United Kingdom once boasted that “the sun never sets on the British Empire.” It held possessions around the world (including its colonies in North America). Now, the British Empire consists of a few islands.

We can safely assume that America will not be around by the end of the Tribulation. It does not appear to be mentioned in the book of Revelation. The present policy of America would not allow it to take a position against the nation of Israel. Will America be one of the areas destroyed by various judgments of God’s wrath? In an instant, a third of the Earth will burn. During the time of His wrath, God will destroy great parts of the Earth without discrimination. America, so it seems, will be a likely target – considering that Gog, Cush, and Israel (and possibly Rome) are mentioned.

Is America the great Babylonian whore? While many preachers speak this as a fact, I’m not sure that America actually fits the mold mentioned in Revelation chapter 17 (namely, the part mentioning her being “[i]drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus[/i]”). While I recognize the economic description of this Babylon resembles the American economic superiority, I’ve actually wondered whether or not this new European Union (complete with a Euro that is vastly superior to the Dollar) will actually fulfill this reference in the near future. Remember, Rome is the “city of seven hills” (verse 9), and that same Rome is responsible for many despicable acts of murder against the true Church – from the time of Christ through the Inquisition (and even betrayal of believers to the Nazis).

Regardless of whether or not America is as sinful a nation as Iran or North Korea (or even Canada and the United Kingdom), we can all recognize the need for a true move of God in this land. If America could experience another “Great Awakening” – then I believe that any sort of judgment could be constrained for a time. My prayer is that the Lord would move within this nation without resorting to a calamity. The “[i]I love you[/i]” letters that I wrote my mom (as a child) were more meaningful to her when they weren’t part of a required school project for Mother’s Day. Likewise, I think that a revival that is born out of simply hunger for God while it is still “day” (versus a need during calamitous “night”) is extremely precious.

The recent dialogue and “words of warning” have prompted me to pray harder for this nation and its people. They have encouraged me to more effectively reach out with the truth to a dying world around me. My secret time with the Lord is filled with wailing and travailing for a powerfully intimate move of God in my own life, my family, and friends; I am praying for my neighbors, the local Body of Christ, the national and worldwide Body of Christ and for this nation and world as a whole. Thank you (Greg, Rahman and Ironman) for sharing these. I am extremely grateful when a “word” inspires and convicts as such.

:-(

_________________
Christopher