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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sinners must DO something TO BE SAVED!

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 Re:

Consider:

- Heb 10:26-31 says the blood does not cover present, or future, willfull sins

- Romans 3:25 says God forgives past sins.

- Luke 13:3 says only repented sins are forgivable.

There is why I conclude, from scripture, that only our past sins (our repented sins) are forgiven, because only repented sins are forgivable. While willfull or future sins must first be repented of before they can be forgiven.

 2007/7/5 3:05
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
In all of scripture, there is not a single incident of God justifying the impenitent. Rather, all those who refuse to repent are condemned to hell.



Hi Jesse,

I completely agree and teach and have taught repentance from sin and faith towards God. I believe that a sinner gets no farther with God than his response to the controversies he/she has with God.

The question may need to be revisited, what is repentance? Perhaps we have not heard the last word on the subject? Perhaps we have blurred repentance and sanctification? To repent is to [i]change[/i] our mind and [i]turn[/i] towards God. It is a change in direction. Somehow we have made repentance to mean perfection. The more I think on this the more impossible it becomes. Can a Leopard change its spots? I mean, really? If we don't need God's intervention then why do we need anything other than the book? We read the biblical instructions (laws) and salvation becomes a self-help "step by step" guide to sanctification.

This is impossible because what God is loking for is not conformity to the Law- but the fruit of the Spirit against which there is [u]no[/u] law. Galatians tells us clearly that [i]having begun in the Spirit we are not made perfect by the flesh[/i]. These people 'had begun in the Spirit'. They had received since they believed. This came about from their repentance and conversion similarly as we read early on in Acts. They repented, were converted, their sins were blotted out and the times of refreshing came from the presence of the Lord.

Paul asked the Galatians the question; did you receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the Law or the hearing of faith?" It was a rhetorical question. To me this is the fundamental question.






_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/7/5 8:39Profile









 Re:

I've always saw repentance as an act of faith, consisting in turning away from sin and turning towards God.

 2007/7/5 8:46
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Jesse I would ask you, when did the Gospel ever become, "confess every sin you've ever committed, and then you shall be saved"?

I agree that the unsaved must "repent and believe the gospel." However this cannot be done unless the heart is regenrated as Christ told Nicodemas, "except a man be born again he cannot see(understand, discern, see) the kingdom of Heaven", and also Christ told the multitudes who were offended by His speaking in John 6, "no man can come to me unless the Father that has sent me draws him." (v44)
And also later He went on to say-
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

So the only way a man can believe the Gospel is by spiritual birth as the natural man cannot receive or understand spiritual things for they are foolishness to him. Man is dead spiritually, and no amount of introspection or sorrow for sin can change that, he must be born again before he will repent. Repentance and faith are the results of the new birth, not the cause.

If it is as you say that a man simply must just believe of his own accord, and confess his sins, then I suppose you don't need to be born again, and man now can somehow produce spiritual life on his own. Sadly many of the errors in the church today flow from this thought, primarily because so many have idolized Finney and his ways.

Now as for unconfessed sin, I ask you have ever sinned after becoming a Christian? Of course if you are honest, you will say yes. Now did that suddenly cut you off from God, and boot you out of Heaven? Did you have to be re-born again again so you could gain entrance back into Heaven? If so, then all is based upon your work, and your self righteousness, and nullifies the righteousness of Christ.

Notice this verse
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby [b]ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.[/b]

Notice that Paul exhorted the Ephesians to not grieve the Spirit, but then told them they were sealed by the Spirit unto the day of redemption. According to what you say, Paul is wrong here, and should say, "grieve not the Holy Spirit, for if you do you will be unsealed, and in danger of missing your redemption."

Now also, what about the sins of omission you committ each day? Wasting of time, harshness toward your wife, not giving your wife the time she needs, not being a godly husband, impure thoughts, and the list goes on and on and on. So do you confess each of these even if you do not know you have committed them? or does the sacrifice of Christ cover these too? If you remember, in the OT there was a sacrifice for sins of omission as well as comission, and since every sacrifice was a type of Christ's perfect sacrifice, it would be safe to say that Christ has paid for all the sins, as "by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" Heb 10:14

As for your other points, if God wanted all men to be saved, they would be. There is not one thing that happens or does not happen that is outside of God's omnipotence. If there was, He would cease to be omnipotent.

Usually the misunderstanding is a misapplication of the word "all", and it does not always mean all in the contexts of passages. For instance
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that [b]all the world should be taxed.[/b]

Well, how much did America pay? How much did the Chinese pay, or Mexico? Obviously this means all of the Roman world, as does many of the passages people use to back up universal redemption. Even John 3:16 "for God so loved the world" Of course Jesus is speaking to a proud Jewish rabbi, who as the Jews did then, believed salvation was only for the Jews. Jesus in effect says, "no God loves all nations, and thus He sent His Son, and whoever believes shall be saved."


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/5 12:17Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re:

WOW! What a discussion! Gonna take a lot of time to digest this.

Brother Jesse, thanks for your article. Just read the first half though quickly and not sure I agree with everything, but that's not required here. Appreciate the work you did. However, I would say in this tennis match I disagree a little with both sides. I'll try to get though your article. Thanks again.

If salvation is totally a work of God, then all would be saved because God wants none to perish. So, it must be conditional - based on many of the things described already.

Also, why is it that any work of man is totally without merit in God's eyes. I think that Paul's phrase on being "saved by grace and not by works" is not all inclusive, but is only reffering to works of the law, which Paul doesn't fail to differentiate elsewhere in his epistles. Certainly, we are not justified by the law: circumsision, keeping of days, etc. But we must do some work in believing, repenting and so forth. Again, else all men would be saved because God would work all of this in all men.

Roaringlamb wrote:

Quote:
The problem by making repentance the work by which a man receives justification, is that it leads to a man thinking he is justified by the works he has done rather than by God's grace alone. Paul had some rather harsh words for those who sought to be justified by the works of the law.



But the tax collector went home justified because of repentence. And it wasn't God repenting in this man, it was the man that repented and God justified him. Else, the pharisee would have repented also because this is what God wanted him to do, because God also wanted him saved.

Also, repentence isn't a work of the law. It is a work of man and God together. God grants the power and man peforms the act based on that power.

Abraham was justified when he believed because it was accounted to him for righteousness. Did God make him believe? Never. Abraham believed God, and God said he was righteous.

So we see that salvation to take a quote from Reidhead, "Not an either-or, but a both-and." It takes God working in us and it takes man to work.

Listened to a great audio from Paris Reidhead last week and it challenged me greatly. It was "So Great Salvation." In the beginning, it challenged my idea of what saved means - 4 tenses to the word salvation:
Past perfect tense - I have been saved from the pleasure of sin - repentence.
Past tense - I was saved from the penalty of sin - justification.
Present tense - I am being saved from the power of sin - sanctification.
Future tense - I shall be saved from the presence of sin - glorification.

First, I would say it takes God to draw us.
Second, It takes man to hear the gospel - without hearing man cannot believe.
Third, man believes the gospel. This seemingly is all mans job, but I am reminded of the parable of the sower, where Satan takes the seed of some hearts. So, man must believe with God's providence.
Fourth, as man believes he repents. He not only believes the gospel, but that he is a wicked sinner. The appropriate response is repentence. However, for me to have victory over sin, I must have God's power to save me from sin. And so forth with the above Reidhead quotes.

Of course, the grace of God accompanies and saturates each step along the way.

What do we preach then?
First, Christ - life, death, resurrection.
Second, Law - without the preaching of which there is no knowledge of sin.
Third, all of the works God seeks to work in us (that the apostles touched on) - belief, repentence, baptism, regeneration, etc.

Needless to say, I am simply a voice for God, not God himself. God does things His way.

Bless you all!


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Neil Long

 2007/7/5 15:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:
when did the Gospel ever become, "confess every sin you've ever committed, and then you shall be saved"?



Verbal confession of every single sin you have committed IS NOT a condition for salvation. That would require a perfect memory, which is impossible and therefore would be an unreasonable requirement.

Rather, the heart must abandon all sin as a whole (not just particular sins remembered) in order to be saved. Repentance is an act of faith, consisting in turning to God which requires a turning away from sin.

Repenting of sins is to turn away from all sins. Repenting is not confession. Confession is not repentance. Confession of all personal and particular sins is impossible and unreasonable, since nobody remembers all that. But repentance from all sin in general is not only reasonable but absolutely required.

----------------------------------

Without God's grace nobody would ever have come to God. And Titus 2:11 says God's grace teaches us to live godly and righteously in this present world. I believe in [b][i]regeneration by revelation.[/i][/b] as brought by the enlightening and illuminating of the Holy Spirit.

1Ti 2:4 - Who will have all men to be [b]saved,[/b] and to come unto the [b]knowledge of the truth.[/b]

Eph 4:23 - And be [b]renewed[/b] in the spirit of your [b]mind[/b]

Col 3:10 - And have put on the new man, which is [b]renewed in knowledge[/b] after the image of him that created him:

Men are corrupted by selfish deception, but are saved by the knowledge of the truth. And it is God's grace which teaches us this knowledge, to influence our wills. Not to force us to get saved, but to influence us to get saved. And those who obey the truth will be saved, and those who obey not the truth will be damned. It is our choice, to resist God's grace by disobeying His revelation, or to submit to God's grace by obeying His revelation.

 2007/7/5 23:43









 Re:

Here is a brother who liked this article very much and put it's message to video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6503272052098986425

I can't believe the quotes that he found from some of these modern preachers, who say repentance is not necessary to be saved, that preaching repentance as necessary is a false gospel, and that Jesus saves sinners IN their sin rather then FROM their sin!

He quotes from this article at 28:15 in the timeline of this video.

 2007/7/22 2:08
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

" Man is dead spiritually, and no amount of introspection or sorrow for sin can change that, he must be born again before he will repent. Repentance and faith are the results of the new birth, not the cause"

Yes! How can one repent when he knows not what to repent of. We are born again that we might repent, not the other way around. Then we will learn revealed sin all our lives and then we can repent. No one has or can repent before the birthing, The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, we believe that we need Jesus Christ the Son of God, then repentance is meaningful and will accomplish that which the Holy Spirit was sent to live in us by the Christ birthed in us through His prayer answered by the Father, then repentance is a wonderful cleansing baptizing into the One Spirit we have become. 1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. The Spirit of the Living God through the Spirit of the Living Word Himself and The Spirit of our Father living in the believer preparing him for the Father's house.

In Christ: Now repentance capable: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/22 13:03Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
How can one repent when he knows not what to repent of



That is what is so amazing about the work of regeneration. If left on his own, man would "drink down iniquity like water", and continue on and on and on in sin because he knows nothing else. But God intervenes by His Spirit and causes the heart to be convicted, and what was once normal behaviour is now seen to be an offence to God.

I know from my own experinence of grace that had God not intervened, I would not have "done" anything, and if my heart had not been changed, or my eyes opened, I would still be dead in sin. But now by His grace, I am alive in Christ!


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/22 13:16Profile





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