| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Logic asked Quote:
How are they (tongues in Acts vs. tongues from I COR) "so remarkably different"?
When the Apostles preached in Acts, all peoples of all nationalities heard the Gospel in their own language.
When the church at Corinth spoke in tongues, they weren't preaching, and weren't understood.
Go way further back in this thread to find my point in better detail. |
|  2007/6/13 19:18 | | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Welcome COUNTYMOUNTY!
Quote:
COUNTYMOUNTY wrote:When my daughter was born she began to communicate with me with words and groans that could not be uttered. It was still communication but not words. I was still able to get the jist of what she wanted. Hungry, sleepy, diaper problems... as she got older she started using words like "baba" interpreted bottle. She was still effective in her commumication but she did not yet speak the true language of her father. As she is now 6 she can speak to me in a complete dialog which i understand or she can still cry out to me. Both of which are effective forms of communication.
When a new believer first receives the gift of tongues it may not be a complete dialect. why? For years they have known only english (or whatever language) but its odd for them to "pray without understanding- without their mind unfruitful" but this doesnt mean its fake or un effective. It is only firstfruits
I tend to lean (now this is just me) toward the view of a Christian who has this gift and has used it for years will probably not still sound like a baby chatter. If so (now this is just my view) It could be that this particular believer really has no prayer life and knows that he or she can mask that by speaking a balabala chapa chapa (baby chatter) I'm in no way saying that bala bala lala is not an effective prayer.
So as the Spirit leads you to allow your mouth to be used by him... if it first comes out as baby sonding chatter continue that. I belive that is the first fruits of the spirit. And as you mature you will find that your prayer language will develop into a beautiful and usefull tool (if you will allow me to use that term)
This is like saying that the Gift of Prophesy needs maturing.
Example:
When a new christian starts out when the Gift of Prophesy come upon him, it may not be a complete prophesy. why? For years they have known only geussing but this doesnt mean its fake or un effective. It is only firstfruits, because that is the first fruits of the spirit. And as you mature you will find that your Prophesying will develop into a beautiful and usefull tool.
Nonsence!
Example:
When a new christian starts out when the Gift of Miricals come upon him, it may not be a complete Mirical. why? For years they have known only reality but this doesnt mean its fake or un effective. It is only firstfruits because that is the first fruits of the spirit. And as you mature you will find that your Miricals will develop into a beautiful and usefull tool.
Nonsence! |
| | 2007/6/13 19:22 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Hia Logic, good to see you!
May I ask why you just answer this brother (I think he is?), with just "nonsense!".
This is going to be hard for me to write, but I've seen what this brother is talking about, not only first hand but with others in The Church.
Have you ever given a message in tongues at Church ? Or a Prophecy in the middle of a Service ? Or gave an interpretation ?
If you have, then do you know what that person feels or goes through the 'first' time they do ?
They are so scared to death until they get used to it, that it is Not perfect, but yet, God in His great understanding blesses their obedience to "pull off something so out of the ordinary". ha.
I've known many people who only got either one word or just a few at first when baptised in The Spirit, but as they became more comfortable with it in prayer, their prayer language became more beautiful.
Yes, the gift of prophecy needs maturing. It's not natural to us to have the Lord speak through us like that. It's scarey to say the least, to take that leap of faith that it's really HIM and not something from our imagination or own mind and you don't know until you let 'er rip and the others discern or judge if it's from God or not.
This is just a short commentary on 1 Sam 19:20 by John Gill about Samuel's School of the Prophets ...
and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying; or praising, as the Targum; singing hymns and songs of praise to God, under the inspiration and influence of the Spirit of God, who endited these songs for them, and excited them to sing them; [u]these prophets belonged to the school or college of prophets at Naioth[/u], whom the messengers saw when they came thither, and found them thus employed; or "when he saw" (m), for the word is singular, that is, the chief of the messengers, or everyone of them, so Kimchi:
[u]and Samuel standing as appointed over them; he was president of the college, and he stood to instruct and teach them in the knowledge of divine things: so the Targum,"standing, teaching over them or by them,''and to direct and assist them in singing their songs of praise[/u]
Well, that was Old Testament, but now the Holy Spirit directs and guides people new to the gifts and they aren't perfect or perfected at first use.
Maybe MOUNTY used the 'firstfruits' in not the best way, but what he seems to be trying to convey is what I seen happen to very many folks that were new to the gifts.
The miracle part, I'm not sure about what he means about partial miracles. I only see the blind man seeing men as trees walking, but maybe this new brother can explain if he's seen something to clarify this better.
His or anyone's first post should be given a chance to develop too.
Bless you.
annie |
| | 2007/6/13 23:46 | |
| | Re: | | [Some small editing, to tidy up things a bit!] Quote:
Corey_H wrote:
Logic askedQuote:
How are they (tongues in Acts
vs. tongues from I COR) "so remarkably different"?
When the Apostles preached in Acts, all peoples of all nationalities heard the Gospel in their own language.
When the church at Corinth spoke in tongues, they weren't preaching, and weren't understood.
The disciples on the Day of Pentecost weren't preaching. They were proclaiming "the wonderful works of God". And at Corinth there is nothing to suggest that someone might not have spoken in tongues in a known langueage in a meeting - why not?
They were [i]speaking[/i] in "other tongues" at Pentecost(Greek, "heteros", other, meaning different). This shows that it was not a miracle of each one [i]hearing[/i] in his own language, but different languages actually being spoken by the disciples.
So even though the occasion itself was unique, there is no reason at all to suppose that the tongues themselves were unusual compared with present day. The fact that to [i]all[/i] 120 disciples were speaking known languages was unusual. These days we would expect maybe only one person speaking a known language on a particular occasion.
The use of tongues at Pentecost, or at Corinth, is no different from some occasions of the use of tongues today?
So there is nothing whatsoever "remarkable" about the difference in the tongues themselves; only the number at Pentecost speaking known languages; and the occasion - something that had never happened before.
Afterwards, when they had drawn a crowd Peter alone preached, ("with" the Twelve" supporting him). Presumably he preached in Aramaic, (or possibly Greek?). In any case, in a language everyone present understood, and not through the gift of tongues (though equally inspired by the Spirit).
Jeannette |
| | 2007/6/14 13:23 | | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
GrannieAnnie wrote:
Hia Logic, good to see you!
May I ask why you just answer this brother (I think he is?), with just "nonsense!".
good to see you too!
It is not to be taken personaly, I I was saying is, that it made no sence. I answered "nonsense" as a descriptive critique, because that is what it is.
Put his example of tongues with any other gift and it falls apart to make no sence.
Quote:
GrannieAnnie wrote:
Have you ever given a message in tongues at Church ? Or a Prophecy in the middle of a Service ? Or gave an interpretation ?
I never spoke in a tongues yet.
However, I've been baptized with the Holy Spirit many times.
I think y'all do not understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is not a one time thing.
Baptize just means to be overwelmed, overcome, emersed.
[b]Rom 6:3[/b] [color=990000]Know ye not, that so many of us as were overcome by Jesus Christ were overwelmed with his death?[/color]
Quote:
If you have, then do you know what that person feels or goes through the 'first' time they do? They are so scared to death until they get used to it, that it is Not perfect, but yet, God in His great understanding blesses their obedience to "pull off something so out of the ordinary". ha
There should be no fear in the Holy Spirit.
If one is fearing to speak out in a tongue, they should not.
The tongue isn't the act, but the Spirit moving.
It should only come from love, not compulsion.
If a Word of Knowlege or of Wisom must be perfect, so must the tongue.
Quote:
I've known many people who only got either one word or just a few at first when baptised in The Spirit, but as they became more comfortable with it in prayer, their prayer language became more beautiful.
Yes, the gift of prophecy needs maturing. It's not natural to us to have the Lord speak through us like that. It's scarey to say the least, to take that leap of faith that it's really HIM and not something from our imagination or own mind and you don't know until you let 'er rip and the others discern or judge if it's from God or not.
No, the gift of prophecy must not need maturing.
You think the prophets of old, their prophesies matured?
It shouldn't be scary but comforting.
My friend who prophesied to his co-workers about an earthquake was acurate and mature.
An encouraging prophesy must be accurate and mature, because it isn't the person who does the prophesying, but the Spirit within him.
One will definatly know if it truly is HIM and not something from our imagination or own mind and you don't hope or guess if it will be.
There will be a strong overwhelming confidence about it.
Quote:
Well, that was Old Testament, but now the Holy Spirit directs and guides people new to the gifts and they aren't perfect or perfected at first use.
The is not correct. the Holy Spirit does not have "new gifts"n and they must be perfect because the Spirit Who gives the is perfect.
My Pastor lead a wife of a wich Dr. in south Africa to the Lord, she was afraid that her wich Dr. husband will kill her because of her faith.
She knew abdolutly no English, but when she got saved, she spoke elequnt English "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD."
She did not use baby talk. It was so well said, that they thought she actualy knew English.
Same with my friend who does not speek spanish, She spoke elequnty to her freind at a bible study.
If it is not an Erthly Language, it will not be Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda.
It wll sound as a mature language.
Quote:
The miracle part, I'm not sure about what he means about partial miracles. I only see the blind man seeing men as trees walking, but maybe this new brother can explain if he's seen something to clarify this better.
This healing is prophetis along with the healing.
You shall know the man by his fruit, Trees bear fruit, the man saw men as trees walking. |
| | 2007/6/14 13:45 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
She knew abdolutly no English, but when she got saved, she spoke elequnt English "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD."
She did not use baby talk. It was so well said, that they thought she actualy knew English.
Same with my friend who does not speek spanish, She spoke elequnty to her freind at a bible study.
If it is not an Erthly Language, it will not be Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda.
It wll sound as a mature language.
Amen to that! |
| | 2007/6/14 20:04 | | LiveforGod
Member
Joined: 2007/4/17
Posts: 299
| | Re: speaking in tongues | | I have no doubts about it being real, what I have a doubt about is if the people who today are professing that they have it, really have it.
Every time in the Bible someone had the gift, people understood; And everytime it appears in the Bible it was because there was a need of telling the Gospel in the listeners own language. Why would you speak in tongues to a people who can understand your language already?Does the gift in tongues exist today?I have no doubts about it, but I am sure that if sombody has it, it is used so that others who do not understand your language would understand the Gospel, For God's Glory; not for men.
_________________
Samuel
|
| | 2007/6/14 20:23 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | It is also a "private" prayer language, for when one is alone and praying, he speaks not to men, but unto God (1Corinth 14:2)
However, no one chooses to speak/pray in tongues just as no one chooses to have a Word of Knowledge or Wisdom, no one chooses to heal, do miracles, discern, prophesy, nor have the gift of faith.
One can not plan on speaking/pray in tongues, can not be induced. |
| | 2007/6/14 23:40 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Corey_H wrote:
Quote:
She knew abdolutly no English, but when she got saved, she spoke elequnt English "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD."
She did not use baby talk. It was so well said, that they thought she actualy knew English.
Same with my friend who does not speek spanish, She spoke elequnty to her freind at a bible study.
If it is not an Erthly Language, it will not be Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda Honda.
It wll sound as a mature language.
Amen to that!
Did I miss something here, Bro Corey? I thought you believed all modern use of "tongues" was wrong, and "gibberish"? But now you seem to be agreeing that it is a "mature language"!
I think that it can take a while for a person to get used to this gift. Not so much that the language isn't "mature" but the person is hesitant or fearful (as I was at first), or doesn't seem to have the faith at first to "flow" fluently.
In another thread on this subject I mentioned an example of an English person speaking fluent Welsh. After the meeting some folk came up to her and started talking Welsh to her and were really confused when she didn't understand them!
An example of a "sign to unbelievers"
Jeannette |
| | 2007/6/15 18:48 | |
| | Re: | | LittleGift, thank you for those words.
It does take a while to get use to the gifts, for the exact reasons you gave.
I just wanted to reply back to Logic's post to me, though you answered that ... but I'd just like to add for Logic, that unless one has been used in "any" of the gifts ... especially the vocal ones, which are most of them ... they would have no idea how they operate through a mere human who is not 'accustomed' to being used that way by GOD.
Thanks y'all. |
| | 2007/6/15 19:04 | |
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