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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Justification Faith Vs Works

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joeSOC
Member



Joined: 2006/9/5
Posts: 94
Melbourne Australia

 Justification Faith Vs Works

Hello everybody My name is Joe. I wish to know what the Author meant by the verse below, as opposed to justification by Faith, which was expressed in the writings of Paul.
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Thank you
Joe

 2006/9/5 5:48Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2730
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Justification Faith Vs Works

Welcome to SI Joe, glad you have joined the forum and please do check out the treasure of resources here. You can find some great sermons and articles that cover many subjects including justification.

I think maybe Mr. John Wesley's explanation of the verse from James that you quoted may help shed some light...
Was not Abraham justified by works - St. Paul says he was justified by faith, Rom 4:2, &c.: yet St. James does not contradict him; for he does not speak of the same justification. St. Paul speaks of that which Abraham received many years before Isaac was born, Gen 15:6. St. James, of that which he did not receive till he had offered up Isaac on the altar. He was justified, therefore, in St. Paul's sense, (that is, accounted righteous,) by faith, antecedent to his works. He was justified in St. James's sense, (that is, made righteous,) by works, consequent to his faith. So that St. James's justification by works is the fruit of St Paul's justification by faith.

-from [i]John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible[/i]


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2006/9/5 9:42Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re: Justification Faith Vs Works

Dear Joe,

At first glance, it would seem the bible contradicts itself. Paul said in Romans 4:2 (NAS), "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."

We have to look at the verse in the context of the scripture in the book of James, and in context of the whole of scripture. In James, if we read further, we begin to see what James was speaking about.

James 2:22-24 (NAS)
"22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,' and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

The point James was trying to establish is that faith without works is an empty faith. It is not a true faith in a true God.

Think of this...we are to have faith that Christ can save us and work in us. If Jesus is truly working inside of us, then the Spirit in us should produce fruit. We should produce fruit in the way of works. The works we do, then, are not our own, they are not our works, but are the works of God. God is working in us, so that our works become His works.

James is trying to say that we need to produce good works as a result of our faith being true.

Paul also emphasized this in Ephesians 2:10 (NAS), "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." And in Colossians 1:10, Paul said, "...bearing fruit in every good work."

So you see, the works are not our own, but instead are fruit. In the above scripture, when Abraham was justified by works, it was not his "own" works, but the "works" of God in him. James tries to establish this point by following the above scripture with a quote from the old testament saying that the righteous works of Abraham were credited by way of believing.

This is such an important thing because Jesus said plainly...

Matthew 3:10(NAS) "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

At first, you might think that we need to rush out and do a bunch of good works. However, we cannot do anything on our own. Our works are nothing unless they are the fruit of God. In the book of John, Jesus was quoted as saying, (John 15:5,6 - NAS) "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."

And so, "working" or "works" are important, but they are not achieved by "working" by our own accord. Our works are only good when we abide in Christ. When we truly abide in Christ, and Christ in us, we are made one with Christ. When this happens, we produce fruit naturally. We do good works because we are one with Christ. Often times, these good works are not even recognizable by us, but only by God who knows all things and sees all things. We often judge by what we can see, but God judges differently.

And so, the important thing for us is to allow God to work in us. How do we do that?

Luke 9:23(NAS) "And He was saying to them all, 'If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.'"

We need to die daily to the world and self, and give ourselves to Jesus. Every day, we need to give ourselves to Jesus and ask Him to come into us.

In John 6, Jesus said He was the bread of Heaven. In the model prayer, Jesus said we should ask for our daily bread. Everyday, we need to ask for Jesus and accept Him into our heart. We should confess our sins before God, ask Jesus to remove them, and then abide in Christ. When this happens, our faith becomes true. When our faith is true, it produces good works.

Otherwise, according to James, if we are not producing works, then our faith is dead (James 2:26). Our faith should produce works.

As a side note, though this is true, this is not a means by which we can judge other people. We have no place saying who is saved and who is not. Just because a person is not producing any fruit, we cannot say, "You are not a Christian." We can, however, point out that they have no works, or that their works conflict with the bible. In this, we should always encourage others in love, with the soul purpose of strengthening their faith. However, our goal should never be to use force. Christ never used force, but always gave Himself unto others. We should do no less.

Hope this helps,
In Christ,

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/9/5 10:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:
"We have to look at the verse in the context of the scripture in the book of James, and in context of the whole of scripture. In James, if we read further, we begin to see what James was speaking about."... "The point James was trying to establish is that faith without works is an empty faith. It is not a true faith in a true God."



Actually Been, contextually speaking, the whole of James is really referring to the faith of Jesus Christ having been made manifest in the new born of Christ Jesus. A new plumbline in Him has now been established that can only honor God. Failure to do so is displeasing to Him.

:-)rm

 2006/9/5 13:11
joeSOC
Member



Joined: 2006/9/5
Posts: 94
Melbourne Australia

 Re:

Thanks I really appreciate it

Quote:

 2006/9/7 4:50Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Saved life timeline:

---->salvation(justification)---->fruit(sanctification)---->death(glorification)

NOT
---->fruit(sanctification)---->salvation(justification)---->death(glorification)


_________________
Kristy

 2006/9/7 12:50Profile









 Re:

NOT
---->fruit(sanctification)---->salvation(justification)---->death(glorification)

But thats the way Abel did it.



:-D

 2006/9/7 12:59
brentbarnett
Member



Joined: 2006/8/31
Posts: 20
Wisconsin

 Re:

The clear teaching of James is that faith without works is dead. James never says that faith itself is a work. He says that it is meaningless to simply believe that Jesus is God. Even the demons believe that. In other words, it is not necessarily sufficient for salvation for a person to have mere intellectual assent to a proposition about the divinity of Christ. True salvation comes with it a regeneration of the heart, a rebirth of the spirit, and a renewing of the mind. The Christian is truly a new creation in Christ. This comes when a person responds to the revelation that God has given him (creation, conscience, Scripture), repents of his sin, and puts his trust in the work of Christ on the cross to forgive him of his sin. There is a change of belief accompanied by a change of heart and will. This is salvation. Sanctification is making the mind more and more in line with truth, training the will more and more in self-control, recalibrating the emotions, and taking any desire of the heart that is toward sin and making it obedient unto the Lordship of Christ. This is a process which is completed when we are glorified. When we are glorified, we even get new bodies. Works are the fruit of salvation which starts with the Spirit convicting men and women of sin. Mankind responds in faith and repentance leading to fruit and obedience.

God bless.

Brent Barnett
www.relevantbibleteaching.com


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Brent Barnett

 2006/9/7 15:34Profile









 Re:

Brent Barnett,


I just read your doctrinal statement. For me, you are already in trouble.

:-( :-D

 2006/9/7 16:07
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

A dead man named Jesus was brought back to life after three day- how can you ever remain the same?

This is what it all boils down to. Or as I once saw philogos say: Jesus is Lord, so now what are you going to do about it?


This is what all this debate ultimately boils down to, and what the entire justification by faith doctrine centers around.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/9/7 19:04Profile





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