Jake wrote None of us can know how much "top-up" we have to make. What does matter is the seeking and exerting and loving your neighbor as yourself. Without these, faith is an empty vessel.

Jake
That would imply that our effort is really what is being measured. This is consistent with the Buddhist concept of merit which underlies your belief in reincarnation, but shows how far distant it is from a biblical perception.

I know you don't approve of Paul's interference with Christianity, but those who knew him best and had witnessed Christ's life and ministry were unanimous in their receiving of his revelation. Peter referred to it in 2 Pet 3:15,16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

This passage tells us that Peter regarded Paul's writings as the wisdom given unto him. According to Peter, these are not the ideas of Paul but are God's. Secondly, you will see that Peter refers to Paul's letters and in the same breath the other scriptures Peter clearly regarded Paul's epistles as scripture. So if you reject Paul you are also rejecting Peter who endorsed Paul. You probably know that Peter is most likely the eyewitness behind Mark's account, so to reject Peter means you lose Mark as well. Your canon of scripture is becoming very small.

The reason I mentioned Paul is because of a fundamental revelation truth given to him by God; namely that God justifies the ungodly. There is no escaping this that on the basis of our complete dependence upon His death in which Christ died for the ungodly God declares us to be right with Him. This 'justification by faith' is a bedrock of Christian doctrine. It eliminates all need for reincarnations or works of merit.

It is what makes Christianity unique among all belief systems. All others insist upon some contribution from the one seeking salvation. Christianity's uniqueness was never expressed better or more simply than in the hymn which says;

Not the labours of my hands,
Can fulfil thy laws demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless, look to Thee for grace:
Foul, I to the fountain fly;l
Wash me, Saviour, or I die.

To know Christ's salvation we must resolutely turn from all human effort and contribution and, having abandoned all hope in do-it-yourself salvation. This is authentic, biblical Christianity. We come without law-keeping qualification; with no confidence in the effort we are putting in; with no self confidence in our contrition. We come empty handed, naked, helpless, foul. But with a glorious prayer that can change everything; wash me, Saviour, or I die. The rest is another gospel.

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Ron Bailey

Jake wrote:

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Ron Halverson

This is all well and good. and I accept that Grace is required because our efforts will always fall short, no matter how well intended we are. But I have a hard time believing that one can accept this Grace without giving any effort to loving our neighbors as ourselves and seeking to follow after the examples and teachings of Jesus. Using this approach one could feel saved and continue sinning in gross manner until the moment before death. Sounds like a dangerous idea to me.

The other question I have about all this is, what about all the people who have lived and died never knowing anything about Jesus? (Pre contact Native Americans, for instance.) Are (were) they condemned? This would seem to me to be unfair. (and this is one of the more minor reasons I beleive in reincarnation, everybody getting a chance for Grace at some point.)

Jake

inthelight wrote Everyone is either in the DO basket or the DONE basket. Evangelism is DONEs going to DOs and telling them the work was DONE

I love it, its going straight into my diary. In fact, its Done!

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Ron Bailey

Jake wrote This is all well and good. and I accept that Grace is required because our efforts will always fall short, no matter how well intended we are. But I have a hard time believing that one can accept this Grace without giving any effort to loving our neighbors as ourselves and seeking to follow after the examples and teachings of Jesus.

Jake
I was playing about with some theological algebra on another thread. Here's another bit of theological algebra. (Just an illustration of truth)

Grace + x = Law, (for any value of x).

Biblically, if you add anything to grace as a necessity for salvation you have introduced an 'x'. The problem inevitably will be that all concentration will be fixed on the x. The x may be prayer, charitable acts, evangelism, a more virtuous life, new resolutions, repentance, faith, efforts towards world peace. Anything that I do to gain acceptance with God is 'law'. Grace is God's undeserved, undeservable love, if I add anything to it as a necessity for acceptance I have polluted it and transformed it into law again.

But 'by the keeping of the law' no man can be justified. It must be by gift of God. For what says the Scripture? "And Abraham believed God, and this was placed to his credit as righteousness." But in the case of a man who works, pay is not reckoned a favour but a debt; whereas in the case of a man who pleads no actions of his own, but simply believes in Him who declares the ungodly free from guilt, his faith is placed to his credit as righteousness. Weymouth Transation

This is outrageous, but it is also the gospel of the grace of God.

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Ron Bailey

Philologos wrote;

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Ron Halverson

Yes, the work of Jesus is DONE. But WE are still here in the world, and (borrowing a little humor from Monty Python) I'm not dead yet. So, while I accept that all of my work will be imperfect, I still must do it because to not do it would be to accept a sinful world without a fight.

Jake

Wrtbooks said:

"And in Luke chapter 3 the geneology goes back right to Adam himself."

If you hold to this geneology you also must hold that mankind has been around for not more than 7,000 years. Well, there are piles of evidence showing that modern man has been around for over 200,000 years. I posted an article earlier that relates evidence that people arrived in North America more than 30,000 years ago. Something has to give here. You deny reality in order to support an untenable literal interpretation of Adam. As I noted (Strong's definition) "Adam" means man in the plural sense. If Jesus and Paul spoke about Adam as if he were a single individual it is because that was the common understanding at that time. It wouldn't have made any sense to the listener to speak otherwise. We know better now.

Jake

jake wrote If Jesus and Paul spoke about Adam as if he were a single individual it is because that was the common understanding at that time. It wouldn't have made any sense to the listener to speak otherwise. We know better now.

Do we indeed?
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:12-17

All things were made by Him and for Him, but 'we know better'?

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Ron Bailey

It's interesting to see how the world moves in an OPPOSITE direction to God.

To the natural man it would appear that things are getting better - that
we are moving FORWARD. The theory of evolution seems to suggest this and that is why it is
so widely accepted as the answer to creation. Man can see its fallen state and
is always trying to improve it. At school one of my classmates who believed in evolution said
that one day science would eventually also find a way of overcoming death.

In contrast, God is always working BACKWARDS. All His redemptive work is for restoration.
Romans 3:23 says we have fallen 'short of His glory'. In Hebrews 2 it quotes the Psalms
and talks about how man was originally crowned with glory and honour. How could it be
any different if we were created in His glorious image out of pure love.

Satan says: You can do it, it's the way FORWARD.
God says: I did it from the very beginning.

And God did do it in Jesus Christ, for His name's sake, so that He would be all
in all - as it was from the very beginning.

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Alexis