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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

ironman's

Quote:
i think the # priority is the preaching of the gospel as sis annie said and at the same time we must not be ignorant of what's going on. there is a balance which must be maintained and each one of us ought to seek the Lord earnestly lest we go off into left field somewhere.



If I may quote Spurgeon again...
Quote:
Your guess at the number of the beast, your Napoleonic speculations, your conjectures concerning a personal Antichrist — forgive me, I count them but mere bones for dogs; while men are dying and hell is filling, it seems to me the veriest drivel to be muttering about an Armageddon at [b]Sebastopol[/b], or [b]Sadowa[/b] or [b]Sedan[/b], and peeping between the folded leaves of destiny to discover the fate of Germany.


The reason I posted this is to remind us that godly men in every age have been quite convinced that they were living in 'the end of the age' and that the world events they saw around them were positive proof.

Spurgeon is referring to
[b]SIEGE OF SEBASTOBOL (SEVASTOPOL) 1854 - 1855[/b]
After the British Victory at The Battle of Alma, the British and French force advanced onto Sebastopol.  The Russian Fortress naval base was laid under siege. The Bombardment began on October 17th. The Allied Commanders Genral Lord Raglan and General Francois Canrobert. Decided to Bombard the Fortress as they did not posses enough forces to take it by storm.  A British naval Squadron under the Command of Admiral Sir Edmund Lyons bombarded Sebastopol from the sea. An attempt was made to relieve Sebastpol by the Russians by Attacking the British Supply port of Balaclava on the 25th October but this attempt failed. Prince Menshikov again tried an attack elevan days later on the Heights of Inkerman but this again was beaton off.  A third attempt to Dislodge the British force, was made on the 16ht of August 1855 at the Chernaya river but failed.  Several allied attempts in the spring of 1855 to take Sebastopol by storm failed. Finally on the 8th of September the French commanded by General Aimable Pelissier took Malakhov a fortification at the southern end of Sebastopol. The British under their new commander General Simpson (Lord Raglan Had Died) attacked ands took the Redan, only to loss it again.   On the 11th of September the Russian abandoned Sebastopol blowing up the defences and all shipping in the harbour.  This event ended the war.  Although the Russian force was still in tacked and not defeated. Czar Alexnader II after the death of his father on March 2nd 1856 signed the final peace terms at the Congress of Paris on march 30th 1856. 

[b]Battle Of Sadowa, - 1866[/b]
Prussian victory over the Austrian army 13 km/8 mi northwest of Hradec Kralove (German Königgrätz) 3 July 1866, ending the Seven Weeks' War. It confirmed Prussian hegemony over the German states and led to the formation of the North German Confederation 1867. It is named after the nearby village of Sadowa (Czech Sadová) in the Czech Republic.

[b]Battle of Sedan - 1870[/b]
(Sept. 1, 1870), decisive defeat of the French army in the Franco-German War, which led to the fall of the Second French Empire; it was fought at the French border fortress of Sedan on the Meuse River, between 120,000 French troops under Marshal Mac-Mahon and more than 200,000 German troops under General Helmuth von Moltke. I was just wanting to point out that every generation has looked at the circumstances of their day and said 'this is it'. I vividly recall the Israeli blue and white flag flying over Jerusalem and saying to a gathering of young people "I do not expect to see my 30th birthday"; I was 25 at the time... I am now chasing 64!

I am not disillusioned although at that time I was an ardent pre-mill, pre-trib Scofield-ite. The context of the Spurgeon quote is important; C I Scofield's dates are 1843-1921. You will see the era in which Spurgeon was preaching was an era much given to the study of the Second Coming and the dates of all Spurgeon's famous battles are part of the context. There were tremendous shifts in World History during this period and the trend was to interpret these events in the light of the Second Coming. Many regarded Napolean as 'the antichrist'. Many regarded Hitler as the same. I once listened to a discourse which proved that Kissinger was the 'antichrist'.

It seems that at every stage of church history and particularly at times of international disruption the saints say 'hey, this fits, we are really in the last days now'. I don't despise these various prophetic schedules. I listen to them and, so far, at the end of each explanation I have had to say 'thank you, but I am still unconvinced'. Some folk think this is because I have a position to defend; I have no 'position'.

I was reading the Revelation again this morning and the atmosphere immediately alerts the heart...“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants [u]things which must shortly come to pass[/u]; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for [u]the time is at hand[/u]. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;”
(Rev. 1:1-4, KJVS)I have underlined two key phrases. I believe these words with all my heart. I know that he will come quickly and that the time is at hand. I also know that approximately 60 generations of my fellow believers have read these words and felt the same way that I do, and that fact, at least, ought to temper my convictions that my generation now has the definitive interpretation of the Revelation.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/1 6:57Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It seems that at every stage of church history and particularly at times of international disruption the saints say 'hey, this fits, we are really in the last days now'. I don't despise these various prophetic schedules. I listen to them and, so far, at the end of each explanation I have had to say 'thank you, but I am still unconvinced'. Some folk think this is because I have a position to defend; I have no 'position'.



I think you are right here without a doubt that every stage of human history folk believed they lived in the last days. For me, the matter is settled when I consider the 2 signs in Daniel 12:4.

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased

It seems that the "time of the end" will be characterized by [i]many shall run to and fro [u]and[/u] knowledge shall be increased.[/i]

Understand that in no way am I on any kind of pretrib band wagon or any of that, but I wish to consider these two signs to see if it were possible that our time is different than any other time in human history. I have often wondered what a person from Babel to the early 1800's wo do if they we suddenly walking the streets of New York City or a like city at night.

seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro...

"to and fro" is Hebrew Strongs 7751. shuwt, shoot; a prim. root; prop. to push forth; [u](but used only fig.)[/u] to lash, i.e. (the sea with oars) to row; [u]by impl. to travel[/u]:--go (about, through, to and fro), mariner, rower, run to and fro.

I think the key here is the word 'many'. This is the Hebrew adjective 'Rab' and it is translated mostly as [i]much, many, and great[/i]. Here is a list from studylights source:

much
many
abounding in
more numerous than
abundant, enough
great
strong
greater than adv
much, exceedingly n m

No matter how we look at this passage it has to be saying that either many will be traveling or that there will be much traveling or 'abundant' travel. The steam engine launched the human race into an era of mechanized mass transit. This is a term unheard of to my knowledge before the steam engine. Folk traveled on foot or by animal. Keep in mind that even the passenger train in many parts of the West is an outdated mode of travel. Most have their own means of mechanized travel. Truly we live in the times of planes, trains, and automobiles. Even civilians can travel to space if a few multi-millioniares have their way. The many shall run to and fro that we experience as a matter of coarse in our daily lives is without parallel in human history.

knowledge shall be increased

Not a lot to get excited about with the word knowledge here, but the word 'increased' is worth looking at.

Here are some places of interest where we find the word appearing:

And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and [u]multiply[/u], and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl [u]multiply[/u] in the earth. (Genesis 1:22)

And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters [u]increased[/u], and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. (Genesis 7:17)

And the waters prevailed, and were [u]increased[/u] greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 7:18)

From these early glimpses into the word for 'increased' it seems that knowledge will be increased upon the earth as to deluge the planet with knowledge. It was only 500 years ago that man was fighting with sword and spear and that books were written out by hand. What about our times? Do we fit the discription of a 'deluge' of knowledge upon the earth?

Consider what Larry Page and Sergey Brin, founders of Google desire to provide access to [i]ALL HUMAN KNOWLEDGE[/i] as part of their vision. As I am typing this there are 110,000+ servers that comprise Google's server farms and they have an entire copy of the publically accessable Internet on those servers. Some believe it is the world's most powerful supercomputer as it is capable of searching, sorting, and highlighting your search request, based on YOUR tendencies through over 8,000,000,000 web pages in 1/2 second. They have spiders that crawl the net constantly updating it. They save EVERY search you have ever performed. They currently are well under way in digitizing the University of Michigan and other huge libraries (of millions of volumes) to make them accessable. The want ALL HUMAN KNOWLEDGE to be available eventually, say in the next 20 years. To TOP that they want this info available via satellite to solar powered hand held devices anywhere in the world. The technology is well under way. Consider also their translation capabilities and suddenly we live in a world where anyone can access all available human knowledge including closed captioning of TV shows and movies-- all SEARCHABLE and on their servers. and if that is not enough, they want the entire genome of nature digitized and all of our DNA online and searchable. This is another project under way. What will the world be like when a person could do a search on their DNA? A lot of secrets are going to come to light if this ever happens and the world will plunge into mass chaos in my estimation, the likes of which probably have not been knownce since before the flood. As it was in the days of Noah... well maybe?

Enough rambling...

God Bless,

-Robert








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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/1 8:58Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Robert W's

Quote:
It seems that the "time of the end" will be characterized by many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased.

Wouldn't that mean that every succeeding generation is 'more' likely to be the last generation? In the logical sense, of course, every generation is more likely to be the last generation than the one before it. But the point I am making is that since the time of the Renaissance each generation has 'stood on the shoulders of the previous one' and seen further? This seeing 'further' has usually resulted in more and more travel so every succeeding generation is more and more characterised by your qualifying factors.

Is this just saying "..for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed." This statement always brings a smile but sometimes we need to hear the obvious. :-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/1 14:51Profile









 Re: Importance by Volume

Typing "Charles Spurgeon Second Coming of Christ" into "Google" gives plenty of what he had to say and about his books by that title and that his view was pre-mill/post-trib ... but that's not the point here.

Most of these men, Spurgeon included, believed in Imminence, and that was absolutely impossible to be fulfilled in their day or even in ours.

The belief of Imminence is not Biblical.
Imminence teaches "any minute now", but The Word teaches, "after these things ... then..".

When before in history was the technology in place for a 'mark' of the beast or for ALL eyes to see the goings on of the two witnesses, etc. ?

How could any former generation possibly know about micro-chips, internet, and so on.
Or see the Ecumenical Movement {or global religion or Religous Alliance} as it's been forming. Or the Apostasy we've been in for the last 20 years. "Truth being thrown into the streets"
Even in my lifetime, I remember the talk of fear of having a Catholic in the White House.

Daniel's "sealed" visions, Are being revealed 'as' or just before things are taking place.
Some are seeing things before they happen, only because they believe John 16:13 is also for us today.

If we've put 'every' single Scripture reference, of end times significance, from O.T. to New, into one File or folder, we'd have been connecting the dots for at least 20 years now.

Discerning and Holding The Word by one hand and The Spirit of Truth by the other. Depending on both equally.

I'd only put as much emphasis on a "teaching" as the Word of God does itself.

I don't see the Bible having chapters and books written about woman's head coverings, or other topics we bring up every day.
But more is in The Book about the end times then any other teaching we hold to as Christians.
I judge the weight of this doctrine by the amount of Scripture there is on it, in the Word.

And how it more than implies, that without an accurate view of "those days" one risks total deception and damnation. They wrote that out plainly enough.

 2006/2/1 15:14
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Is this just saying "..for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed." This statement always brings a smile but sometimes we need to hear the obvious.



Yes. This is why I am not one to try to set dates or anything weird like that. I think, in my mind, that the two indicators are exceedingly true since the Renaissance. I agree that every generation since likely said that knowledge is increasing and since the exploration of Columbus and the like they saw it as an indicator of increased travel. Books could be taken to remote jungles and so could mechanized travel.

So I suppose it would be fair to say that Daniel 12:4 has been unfolding since Gutenburg. But I think it is also fair to say that this train is gaining momentum and that it appears that we are fastly undoing the 'preventative judgments' (;-) I'm borrowing this term from a dear brother) that were implemented by God to slow man's wickedness or if I can put it another way; 'the [u]speed[/u] at which our Old Man (the old man) is refreshing itself in its blatant wickedness is progressing.' In other words the 'refresh rate' is increasing exponentially. And as it seems to be my personality to draw conclusions from the data, it seems we are fast heading towards the time described in Genesis 6. We have passed up Babel and undone that and are fast working on man's lifespan. We have already undone the pain 'multiplied' in childbearing for those who have access to pain management techniques. When all of those measures are effectively circumvented, what will the world be like? :-?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/1 15:29Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
he belief of Imminence is not Biblical.
Imminence teaches "any minute now", but The Word teaches, "after these things ... then..".


Imminent means 'overhanging'; that there is no necessary preceeding event. It does not mean 'any minute now' but simply that there is no necessary scriptural event which must occur before the Coming.


Quote:
Typing "Charles Spurgeon Second Coming of Christ" into "Google" gives plenty of what he had to say and about his books by that title and that his view was pre-mill/post-trib ... but that's not the point here.


No one was able to make any of these labels stick when he was alive. I advise caution now that he is dead.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/1 15:46Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

RobertW's

Quote:
'the speed at which our Old Man (the old man) is refreshing itself in its blatant wickedness is progressing.'

I'm not sure I see the 'Old Man' like this. The 'Old Man' is steady state, it is in the individual that that 'refreshing' takes place rather than in society.

This will high-jack the thread. :-) If you want to pursue the 'Old Man' line we could move to the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9297&forum=36]Original Sin? Adam or Me?[/url] thread.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/1 15:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
he belief of Imminence is not Biblical.
Imminence teaches "any minute now", but The Word teaches, "after these things ... then..".


Imminent means 'overhanging'; that there is no necessary preceeding event. It does not mean 'any minute now' but simply that there is no necessary scriptural event which must occur before the Coming.


Quote:
Typing "Charles Spurgeon Second Coming of Christ" into "Google" gives plenty of what he had to say and about his books by that title and that his view was pre-mill/post-trib ... but that's not the point here.


No one was able to make any of these labels stick when he was alive. I advise caution now that he is dead.



Hia Ron, to quote you ""It does not mean 'any minute now' but simply that there is no necessary scriptural event which must occur before the Coming.""

In the minds of those who believe in Imminence, both how I define their belief and how you just did are synonomous.

About Spurgeon's book, as I said on the previous page, I have it and read it, so any caution you've suggested would have to refer to my ability to understand what I read, as in, am I dyslexic or something :-D .

Lord knows anymore who is and who isn't, especially in reading each other's posts.


god bless. (as in small g in godhead :)



Love youse guys.
Annie

 2006/2/1 16:57
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
In the minds of those who believe in Imminence, both how I define their belief and how you just did are synonomous.

I believe in imminence but not in your definition of it. I am not looking for any preceding signs but for His coming.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/1 17:22Profile









 Re:

Hia Ron,

So what is your take on 2Th 2:2-3 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed {apokaluptō}, the son of perdition ....
?

 2006/2/1 17:31





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