| Poster | Thread | roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: My thoughts | | It is easy to believe in using the sword when you are on top and there is some hope of defeating the enemy and preserving your life (nation) in the process. But what if you are on the bottom? What if you dont have any means of asserting power over the enemy? Or you cant count on the powers-that-be to defend you? Then what? Then our rational for using the sword falls apart. We realize that the sword is only trustworthy if it is backed up by brute power and dominance.
We are told that God is our fortress, our deliverer, and our defence. Do we believe this?
God clearly promised to preserve Israel IF they would trust in him. Even when they were taken captive by Babylon, they were told to remain there and not try to fight or flight. Of course they followed the same logic as most people do today and thought Gods idea was ridiculous. So they fled to Egypt.
Then when Jesus came, the Jews expected him to conquer their enemies through brute power the sword and dominance and make them into a nation. Jesus did not. In fact he was stripped of all power to dominate other than by dying. He was building a spiritual eternal kingdom and if we are his followers, than THAT is the kingdom we should be fighting for (with his weapons which does not include a sword). In the Bible the sword is a symbol of power, control symbolizing Gods authority through his word and the Spirit. I ask where in the Bible was anyone won to Christ at the point of a man-made sword? IT would seem that, people were won by the use of God-given weapons faith, the Spirit, love etc.
Jesus did not come with a sword. He came as a human stripped of his divine power. HE never used it to assert himself over another. He modelled the non-violent approach to enemies and taught it, not in the rare, obscure reference but very clearly.
We question Gods ability to protect us because we dont trust him, and also because we prefer to take justice into our own hands. Jesus will return with a sword to bring final judgment. But we are CLEARLY told that vengeance is reserved for God.
Our desire for the sword could be an indication that the preservation of our earthly kingdom is more important to our sense of identity and security than Gods eternal kingdom.
If God did not obligate himself to preserve Israel as a nation, why should he be under any obligation to preserve any nation today. Nations rise and fall, and they fall when they stray from God (right?) If God will bring a sword against our nations as a form of judgment, then no matter how hard we try to fight back, we wont win (in the long run). Only repentance will work (That is an unlikely sword in our fleshly minds)
Nevertheless, we cannot deny that God works within and through the evil on this earth including war and strife.
Quote:
2) Should America and England have remained passive as Christian nations while Hitler's seige continued?
They DID remain passive when they could have prevented it. And then, they did not deal with the problem when they should have, and just let it get worse for a while before finally intervening.
Just yesterday I interviewed a British war veteran (to put a feature in the local paper) I asked him: Do you think the war could have been prevented? He said and emphatic, Yes. He pointed out that in Britain Hitler was considered a hero for a while because he was anti-communist.
There is a lot to take into consideration when we try to decide whose fault it was: We must consider how the Germans were treated after WW1 with no mercy whatsoever. We must consider the ideologies in the German Culture prior to the war the patriarchal families where the children were required to hop to the commands of the father without asking any questions
. Or the pagan influence, the pride, the rising nationalism. (Oh, the dangers when ones nation becomes ones god) or the failure of spiritual leaders to put God first and preach it at all costs.
We like to glorify those whom we designate as our war heroes. But we fail to realize who the real hero is God himself. We hear little about the miracles that God performed. (My grandfather, a believer and leader in the underground movement in Holland wrote of many miracles) We fail to hear about the intercessory work of Rees Howells. (How many of you know about him?)
Here is another thought:
Why was Hitler so evil? His beliefs about white supremacy?, his promotion of euthanasia for all the people ?
..mmmmmmm that hits rather close to home, doesnt it?
In my opinion the war was a very sad commentary on the utter failure of man to live by Gods principles to trust him and follow his leading. Really there are no heroes at all. We are not the victors. We cannot boast of the achievements of man. We can only acknowledge the reality of the depth of our sin nature.
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Diane
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|  2005/10/12 7:30 | Profile | rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Sister Diane wrote;
Quote:
I ask where in the Bible was anyone won to Christ at the point of a man-made sword? IT would seem that, people were won by the use of God-given weapons faith, the Spirit, love etc.
My father spoke of the time when he was about to be captured by the Koreans in North Korea. He was a sargent in charge of a machine gun nest. He realized his utter helplessness and prayed for God to deliver him from this situation. He was taken prisoner and release at the end of the war.
I believe God uses war to cause men to bow down before Him in the hope that they would cry out to Him. I believe God uses war to destroy those whom He judges.
Quote:
Just yesterday I interviewed a British war veteran (to put a feature in the local paper) I asked him: Do you think the war could have been prevented? He said and emphatic, Yes. He pointed out that in Britain Hitler was considered a hero for a while because he was anti-communist.
In another thread, "these days are evil," I cover this topic. Hitler was a hero for the American and English industrialists. Hitler was a ally to the American ownership class. You see, the rule of democracy, in the form of Communism threatened the right of ownership of the princes of America and England. Now again, we have entered into a era of facism. I saw a new term coined today. The papers are starting to talk of Islamo-facism. This now is a threat to the existing facist systems of this world. Facism most correctly resembles the types of governments that are spoken of in Daniel.
We choose to be blind to the evil that surrounds us. Why? Because we look to this world for our provisions. We use the sword to maintain economic control of this world's dark treasures. Thus most of the nations are made drunk by the wine of fornication with the great whore Babylon.
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2005/10/12 10:52 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
2) Should America and England have remained passive as Christian nations while Hitler's seige continued?
for myself this is a different question. The church was never intended to legislate for the world. The issue of nationalistic pacifism is somewhat different to the issue of personal pacifism. I would never seek to press pacifism on the nations. My questions relate more to what the Christian response should be.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/10/12 15:09 | Profile | crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Break from the war, an aside | | Quote:
We fail to hear about the intercessory work of Rees Howells. (How many of you know about him?)
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2309&forum=41#14618]Rees Howells/Intercessor[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2764&forum=34#17622] Rees Howells, excerpt: Ethiopia[/url]
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Mike Balog
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| | 2005/10/12 15:52 | Profile |
| | Re: | | quote from Rookie
"I believe God uses war to destroy those whom He judges."
God judges and destroys innocent women and children that are collateral damage from war? Your statement implies that God sends people to war, when clearly they choose it out of their hard heartedness and evil greed.
RE Hitler: I've heard this one way too many times. Hitler came to power because of the shape Germany was left in after world war I, which happened largely because European countries had standing armies with nothing to do. Thus the folly of the military is exposed. If you have one, you will use it for something bad eventually. The US had a large military with nothing to do, so we invaded Iraq. On and on it goes. We were attacked on 9/11 because of the bravado of the military espousing USA. We went around acting like the rulers of the world and, of course, someone took offense.
The military is a waste of national treasure and many, many lives.
Bubbaguy |
| | 2005/10/12 16:32 | | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | bubaguy wrote:
Quote:
God judges and destroys innocent women and children that are collateral damage from war? Your statement implies that God sends people to war, when clearly they choose it out of their hard heartedness and evil greed.
They do choose to follow the ways of Satan. The masses are made drunk with the wine from the kings who fornicate with the great whore. When I say that God judges through the use of war and the avenger is the king this is because Scripture says it is so.
Jer. 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.
Ezek. 9:6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary. So they began with the elders who were before the temple.
The day of the Lord that is to come will be no different.
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2005/10/12 18:18 | Profile | roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: | | Roadsign said:
Quote:
Where in the Bible was anyone won to Christ at the point of a man-made sword? It would seem that, people were won by the use of God-given weapons faith, the Spirit, love etc.
Response by Rookie:
Quote:
My father spoke of the time when he was about to be captured by the Koreans in North Korea. He was a sargent in charge of a machine gun nest. He realized his utter helplessness and prayed for God to deliver him from this situation. He was taken prisoner and release at the end of the war.
That reminds me of the line: "There are no atheists in fox holes" In other words when one is desperate, they suddenly believe there is a God and cry out to him.
War makes desperate people. While God uses war, like any other refining fires to draw people to himself, I don't see Christ calling us to be instruments of judgment. ... ie: We'll show them they are wrong! We'll make them pay for their evils, and they'll just have to admit they are sinners. And that's how we'll get them to convert.
How do you try to get someone saved when you are trying to kill them?
I suspect Rookie, that you are not using your example to justify the sword or any kind of brute force as an attempt to convert unbelievers
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2005/10/12 20:59 | Profile | letsgetbusy
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Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia
| | Re: | | Brothers and sisters,
I respect your opinion if you take a position of pacifism, but I think you are going a bit far when you have begun to have a distatse for the military.
"he is the minister of God to thee for good"
His purposes are good.
"he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God"
So his bearing of the sword is good in God's sight.
"a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
Justice is of the LORD. So if he is God's minister upon evil, why would you say that his cause is evil?
"Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."
The purpose of the sword is not to kill the unconverted (cutting of his ear, his ability to hear the gospel), it is to bring justice on evil. I would say that God has everything under control. So to say that justice is not being done is saying God has not used the minister of the sword.
This subject still has not been addressed. What about policemen? If the military is a waste, what about cops? Remember that they are just a local military. Can a Christian be a police officer or a member of a SWAT team?
"For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing."
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Hal Bachman
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| | 2005/10/13 10:42 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Romans 13 was written at a time when there was much unrest among the Jews. To exhort believers (Jewish or non-Jewish) to remain in subjection to the Roman authorities was completely contrary to the Zealot and Pharisaical cause. The Zealots were perhaps leaders of the first revolt (70 CE), but the Pharisees from Jamnia (Yavneh) were jockeying for power and ultimately anointed Bar Kochba as messiah in around 135 CE.
And this is an aspect of the issue we have yet to tackle. Why did the Jews not want to submit to Rome? Judas the Galilean said it would be paramount to breaking the first commandment because Ceasar exalted himself as deity. The Christians would not fall in line with the zealot or even Akiba's cause because to do so would be to deny Christ and come under a false messiah. This divided the believing Jews from the non-believers as the non-believing Jews viewed those who would not take up the sword and fight as traitors.
So the issue is a little more involved than merely violence and war.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/10/13 10:55 | Profile | roadsign
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Posts: 3777
| | Why war? | | Quote:
The purpose of the sword is not to kill the unconverted, it is to bring justice on evil.
It just happens that the unconverted get killed and also the converted - when destructive weaponry is used. It gives no more opportunity to repent.
What is the purpose of justice? To prevent the evil from occurring again? To destroy evil? Does it work? Wasnt WW1 the war to end all wars? What about the Crusades?
It seems that far too much evil has been done in the name of God when Christians have banned together to eradicate evil by the use of the sword. There is no limit to how much horror is done when man determines who are the evil ones. And it is always the OTHER guy who is the evil one.
We all have a natural God-given need to see justice. Justice is an attribute of God. Only when sinful man takes revenge into his own hands, it only creates trouble and builds walls. It harms everyone.
Note how this kind of thinking affects our every day lives - when we want justice for the wrong doer. Think of the wars between marital partners. Each wants to make the other pay for their wrongs and so they take justice into their own hands even if it is as subtle as by withdrawing affection and eye contact.
If man could handle justice then why did Jesus warn against the administration of it?
You are assuming that evil is a person or persons or a nation. But Eph. 6:10 says otherwise. Evil is a principality in the heavenly realm, and we are REQUESTED to fight it with our God-given weaponry (if we have it)
I find it interesting that Jesus never put anyone in prison, or brought accusations against people (like the Pharisees did) However, he set the captives free free from sin. He forgave the evildoer who repented. He sought repentance in all his earthly relationships with man. Cant we do that???????????
It is tragic when the Christian community has nothing better to offer the evil in the world than a mere man-made sword.
I would rather be part of the underground rescuing those who are endangered by the abuse of power from higher authorities (whether a sword or other) Is that not our calling?
And leave justice for God to handle like he said he would (several times in Scripture)
Our HIGHEST calling is to be followers of Christ, regardless of our temporal occupation including being a police officer. It is not the occupation, but the way we conduct our daily decisions within that position. Carter Conlon was a policeman and he set an example of integrity and honesty among his peers. That made him stand out.
The conduct of many law enforcements is tragic goes outside of good ethics. Whenever one has power, one can easily abuse it. So it is the heart condition that counts more than the role.
Rather than say no one can be a police officer, we should say no one should live his life in his own strength and by his own reasoning. He needs the authority of God in his life, and God will direct his affairs.
The Jews mentioned above who revolted where really revolting against God. They were not called to apply the sword to evil Casaer, but to walk the second mile with the soldier, to heal the centurion's daughter, etc ... and be content in the FREEDOM that Christ came to give their souls.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2005/10/13 11:50 | Profile |
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