You are welcome Todd!

_________________
Mike Compton

ZekeO,

I think you're bringing up a relevant point. But I'm wondering how much it can be backed biblically. I also don't think I have a clear understanding of your question.

Are you saying that openness in personal relationships adds weight to someone's claim of apostolic authority? In that case I think I might agree with you, in a sense, but certainly this is not a major sign of an Apostle. But this clearly does seem important for any leadership.

But I think the thing that really carries weight in the realm of church authority is power. I just see it all over the New Testament. It really seems pretty simple to me. But I can see how the personal relations aspect would help give the person claiming authority more weight in an individuals eyes. That seems to be a very subjective assessment though.

I would say that the one thing that "separates the men from the boys", as you put it, is the raw power of God.

MC,

Hey Todd,

really got me thinking, get back to you after work or at lunch. I have a few scriptures bouncing around my head at the momment.

Write later,

_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

Im really puzzling over the turn of our conversation. I had always understood that, at least in the New Testament days, ONLY those who have seen the risen Lord (in flesh) can call themselves Apostles. They were first disciples and then later became apostles. Sorry I dont know the verse to back this, maybe someone out there can help to clarify this.

Have you ever played the "Telephone Game" in grade school ?

One person starts by whispering a short message in a person's ear and then that person whispers what the first person said to the next person, and from there, on it goes, and by time you get to the 20th person or so, the original message is nothing like what the first person had said. Ha ! It was a funny game.

Anyhow, that seems to be what folks have done to the definition of "Apostles" out there in church land.

An apostle, was nothing more than a male "Messenger", like what we call a Missionary or a Church Starter or Ambassador, now a days.

A Representive for Christ to bring His message to folks.

Here's some definitions and how & where it's used elsewheres.

G652 apostolos
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), - apostle, messenger, "he that is sent".

G652
apostolos
Thayer Definition:
1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
1a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
1b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
1b1) of Barnabas
1b2) of Timothy and Silvanus and Epiphroditus Phil 2:25
Part of Speech: noun masculine

G652
apostolos

Total KJV Occurrences: 81

apostles, 53

Mat_10:2, Mar_6:30, Luk_6:13, Luk_9:10, Luk_11:49, Luk_17:5, Luk_22:14, Luk_24:10, Act_1:2, Act_1:26, Act_2:37, Act_2:43, Act_4:33, Act_4:36, Act_5:12, Act_5:18, Act_5:29, Act_5:34, Act_5:40, Act_6:6, Act_8:1, Act_8:14, Act_9:27, Act_11:1, Act_14:4, Act_14:14, Act_15:2, Act_15:4, Act_15:6, Act_15:22-23 (2), Act_16:4, Rom_16:7, 1Co_4:9, 1Co_9:5, 1Co_12:28-29 (2), 1Co_15:7, 1Co_15:9, 2Co_11:5, 2Co_11:13, 2Co_12:11, Gal_1:17, Eph_2:19-20 (2), Eph_3:5, Eph_4:11, 1Th_2:6, 2Pe_3:2, Jud_1:17, Rev_2:2, Rev_18:20, Rev_21:14

apostle, 19

Rom_1:1, Rom_11:13, 1Co_9:1-2 (3), 1Co_15:9, 2Co_1:1, 2Co_12:12, Col_1:1 (3), 1Ti_1:1, 1Ti_2:7, 2Ti_1:1, 2Ti_1:11, Heb_3:1 (2), 1Pe_1:1, 2Pe_1:1
apostles’, 5
Act_2:42, Act_4:35, Act_4:37, Act_5:2, Act_8:18
sent, 2
Joh_13:16 (2)

messenger, 1

Phi_2:25

messengers, 1

2Co_8:23

Prophets are just that. Eph 4:11 Just on the list with Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists & Apostles.

'Apostolic Authority' is something, that somebody just WANTS I guess, because these Scriptures don't point to any such thing.

The "Apostolic Authority" teaching started with the Catholic Teaching.

Guess some folks just need to feel "Special-er" than the most ... Ha !

Enjoying reading this discussion. Neat !

_________________
Mike Compton

Hi everyone,

Just a very important question, echoing free's question:

Are there apostles today ?

Personally, I think that there are none.

Manfred

I believe there are no Apostles such as the originals... gifted as the originals, etc.

There is an apostolic ministry today in the sense that there are those who travel and plant churches, but they are not of the same variety as the Apostles.

For one thing, the Apostles mentioned in scripture all had one thing in common... they had all seen Jesus. Even Paul. He saw Him on the road to Demascus, and no doubt Paul had witnessed Jesus' earthly ministry... he just wasnt in favor of it at the time it was going on.

These are my convictions on it. I get nervous about someone who declares themselves to be Apostles. You see it increasing in Charismatic circles today: Apostle So and So. Putting themselves on par with the original Apostles. I understand the original Apostles were mere men, but I think everyone understands what I am saying.

Krispy

_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

Hi Manfred,

I am not in a position to call someone an apostle, but here are some scriptures about them that broadens the field a bit:

1) Jesus – “The Apostle”. Heb 3:1…fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.
He was “the” sent one. Jn 13:16; Jn 3:17

2) The twelve apostles.
a. The were also “sent ones”
b. They were “witnesses of Christ’s Resurrection”. Acts 1:22,26
c. The number was fixed. Rev 21:14, Matt 10:2; Jn 6:70,71
d. When Judas committed suicide, God led the other eleven to replace him. Acts 1:21-26
e. God accepted Matthias according to acts 2:14
f. Paul was never intended by God to be one of “The twelve”. He did not meet the necessary requirements to become on the twelve. He only became a Christian three years later. He distinguishes himself from the twelve in 1 Cor 15:5-8

3) Other Apostles in the New Testament.
The Father “sends” the Twelve- while here on earth
The Spirit “sends” others-now that Christ has returned to heaven, after His Ascension.
a. There are more apostles named in the New Testament than any other Ephesians 4 ministry: four prophets named, one evangelist, one teacher, no pastors!
b. There are nine other apostles mentioned by name:
i. Barnabas-Acts 14:14
ii. Paul-Acts 14:14
iii. Andronicus-Rom 16:7
iv. Junias-Rom 16:7
v. Silas (Silvanus)-1 Thess 1:1; 2:7
vi. Timothy-1 Thess 1:1; 2:7
vii. James, Jesus’ natural brother and not one of the Twelve-Gal 1:19
viii. Apollos-1 Cor 4:6, 9
ix. Epaphroditus-Phil 2:25

If the number was fixed at twelve, then there would not have been a possibility of others posing as apostles and deceiving the believers-Rev 2:2
This was some 50 years after Pentecost!
c. Also there are references to counterfeit or false apostles-2 Cor 11:13

4) There is far more said about the ministry of apostles that all other ministries combined

_________________
Zeke Oosthuis