Quote: "Or, should we humble ourselves, pray, and turn from our wicked ways, and live in such a manner that it is evident that we are pilgrims in this world, and we are looking forward to that place He has prepared for those who love Him!"

This has been the call to the Church from time immemorial. If the great majority of "Christians" are truly wicked, then the true Church is far far far smaller than we realize. Why? Because true Christians are not wicked.

And the "true" Church is presumably already living in the manner quoted above. Yet it appears that judgment and not revival is the order of the day. Why? If the true Church is doing what it is supposed to do, why is God going to judge it?

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Todd

"And the "true" Church is presumably already living in the manner quoted above. Yet it appears that judgment and not revival is the order of the day. Why? If the true Church is doing what it is supposed to do, why is God going to judge it?"

I believe that as we draw nearer and nearer to the end of all things we shall see a greater falling away as prophesied. The Lord will sift His church to draw His bride out of this mess. I don't see it as judgement but rather a sifting and a shaking so that what remains is a pure bride.

Mark wrote: "but rather a sifting and a shaking so that what remains is a pure bride."

In your opinion, who will be sifted out? Christians or non-Christuans? If Christians, only those who are only "sort of" Christians? If non-Christians, they are not part of the true Church so they don't need to be sifted.

Which begs the question- is there such a thing as a "sort of" Christian?

Sorry to pepper you with questions!

But I hear language like sifting and shaking and I wanted to make sure we are all on the same page.

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Todd

"...true Christians are not wicked."

True! But true christians have wicked ways that they are called to repent of.

The verse is very clear who is being addressed.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from
heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chr. 7:14

Verses could be multiplied to verify this. And many of God's own, on an individual level, could be shown to have some wicked ways.

Pray! Pray! Pray! And get away...

...from Hollywood and the numerous other worldly wickednesses that are the makings of lukewarm vessels. Have singleness of eye and slash double-mindedness to pieces.

Bless the Lord!

Wow that is a deep question brother Todd:-) If you had asked me this question 6 years ago I would have given you a cookie cutter answer inline with my denominational beliefs. But since then I see things a lot differently. I now see salvation in much the way Paris Reidhead describes it in his multi-part sermon series "So great a salvation".

Salvation is not a cut and dried thing, there are no guarantees. We never actually have it "in the bag" for if that were the case we would not have this "blessed hope". The calvinists see it differently to me in that they believe that people are hand selected to be saved and no matter what, this elect group will be saved regardless.

I do believe that salvation is a process and that some christians - having first begun in faith will for a variety of reasons fall away from the Lord and be eternally lost.

The Lord will never write them off though and will continue to lovingly urge them and warn them to repent and return to Him. The warnings are just like those in Revelations 2 & 3. For example to the church at Sardis the Lord warns them that if they do not wash their filthy garments they will have their names erased from the Book of Life. So it is the same for us, there will be a sifting and a shaking going on in our lives as the Lord continues help us follow after Him.

At the same time as we approach the end of this age we will see a great (greater) falling away that is characterized by a false church system (babylon) and a deathly religious spirit that has the perfect form of what a christian should look like but is in fact empty and void of Christ. This is apostasy. Now, true believers who remain in contact with this "form" and continue to be influenced by this apostate church will be in danger of falling away themselves. And this is why I believe the Lord is sifting and shaking believers to see the truth and to understand that not all is as it seems. That the "emperor" is not wearing any clothes.

I believe that the more the Lord sifts and shakes the more whole hearted believers will see the false church in more and more of its forms and gradually remove themselves from more and more of it.

But it is a process. At first the shaking creates an awareness, an awakening to the obvious things like worldliness or the love of money. And so believers remove themselves from the groups who fool around in these areas. And then the Lord shows whole hearted believers more and they see that many of religious groups are devoid of the life of the Spirit...they are not just in need of revival...they are "Ichabod". And so the whole hearted believer comes out of those groups as well.

And so on and so on.

This is what I mean by a sifting and a shaking...sorry if this sounds disjointed and muddled I wrote it in a hurry.

It doesn't matter one iota who is elected!!

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ~ Romans 8:28

We are called to love God and love our neighbors regardless who is President of the Unites States of America, period!

And one more thing, we should start believing in Mark 16:17-18, THESE SIGNS shall follow them that believe... "they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." Your children, your relatives, your friends are going to need someone who believes in it and Him to pray for them!

Just my little ole two cents!! God bless,
Lisa

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Lisa