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Men are not to be elevated in place of Christ. Their works are not to be elevated in place of the Bible.
There is only one authority over the church. It is Jesus Christ and Him alone. His Word is all that is needed.
Blaine,
With all due respect I disagree. The Church has always had leadership, Apostles, Elders. Though at times in persecuted contexts there is less organization out of necessity, though even in underground churches in China there is great organization in certain large house church networks, ie 1 brother ontop, then many other regional leaders over the other leaders. This is simply something that happens and if we submit to Church-life in our local areas we need to be under some authority.
Early Church Fathers are not just like us in that they were leaders, most of them bishops (Elders) and led the flock of God in their day. They simply followed the patter the Lord left of leadership over the church ie the 12 apostles (11 not counting judas).
Quote:
Believers in persecuted lands only need Jesus and His Word. Indeed those that during the Reformation who stood for this were put to death by the institution who claimed to walk in the legacy of the so called church fathers.
Anabaptist groups did not consider themselves a new group but also looked to early examples. A reading of menno simmons will show this.
ie
Like many of the Reformers, Simons’ beliefs concerning church practices were affected by his in-depth search of the scriptures which started around 1526. During this time of study, serious questions arose concerning the doctrine of transubstantiation (the change of the substance of the bread and wine into the actual Body and Blood of Christ). Menno could not find any evidence of this doctrine in the Bible. “I did not get very far in it before I saw that we had been deceived.” He concluded that the meaning of the Lord’s supper was symbolic. Infant baptism, also not found in the Bible, was another issue he had concerns about. In 1531 he discussed his issues with his pastor, searched the writings of the Church Fathers, and read the works of Martin Luther and Heinrich Bullinger. It was at this time he came into direct contact with Anabaptists who were preaching and practicing believer’s baptism.
from: http://biblicalbelievers.com/index.php/the-reformers-2/the-reformers/menno-simons/
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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|  2014/7/18 18:36 | Profile |
| | Re: | | HI saints,
I have been kind of holding back on this particular thread. Not really sure where to start. I have studied church history extensively and the early church fathers so called. I would put the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church around 312 or so, prior to that they were known as the catholics, small c. The other main group were known as the Donatists. The catholic group were also known as "traidors" a derivative of the word traitor. The word traidor meaning to " hand over." What did they hand over? Other Christians and Scriptures to the Romans under the most severe persecution which lasted about 8-10 years and started around the year 300 under Diocletian. When the persecution ended, the catholics had great favor with the Romans because they had buckled under persecution, denied the faith and had traitorously handed over brothers and sisters to be killed and Scriptures that had been hidden.
Constantine favored the catholics when he came to power over the Donatists and began to pay the " bishops," and build the churches ( prior to this churches were in houses) Now, the split between these two groups was a long standing one going back into the mid to late 2nd century. The Novationists of that age complained bitterly that this catholic group had wilted under persecution. Anyway, the Catholic church was born as an establishment under Constantine and on his payroll. This Catholic church was corrupt from the beginning and only grew worse with power, and it was not long before they persecuted and killed people from the group known as the Donatists. This is the first instances of " Christians killing Christians." And history tells us that the Catholic church would go on and kill millions of people under the guise of " The Lord's work." Just because there were genuine saints within the ranks of Catholicism prior to the Reformation, in no way legitimizes the Catholic Church. The mass is a masterpiece of Satanic counterfeit whereby Jesus is " sacrficed," anew every week. The piece of bread is Jesus to them. This is not the Jesus of the Bible. Their system of leadership owes more to the ancient mystery religions than anything that is found in the Bible.
The Catholic church maximized, to the fullest, the ignorance of an almost entirely uneducated people. This is why they had such hatred towards the "laymen," preaching. God raises up leaders, servant leaders who , first and foremost, love the sheep. This is the key identity to a leader within the Body, His love and desire to serve rather than be served. It is very rare in our denominational system to find such men. Anyway, it would take volumes to describe the corruption, from the beginning, of what we know to be the Catholic church. From Maryology to co-redemptrix to transubstansiation to purgatory to salvation by works and faith ( in Catholicism one must be sanctified before one can be justified, think about that for a second) And on and on it goes, infallability, celibacy, praying to dead saints and the like. But, praise the Lord, millions of Catholics over the centuries, by the power of the Holy Spirit have came out of this great deception. They are a testimony and a trophy of Gods grace and mercy. That ones so raised and soaked in deception can find the truth and be delivered is a mighty miracle. Long may those miracles continue............bro frank |
| | 2014/7/18 20:03 | | Oracio
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Whittier CA USA
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Mathew 24:9
Do not call anyone on earth your father, for One is your Father, He who us in heaven.
Brethren this is a very, very serious admonition of Jesus. I am seeing some disturbing elements coming out in these threads. When I hear men ascribed as "church fathers" or "holy fathers" I get disturbed. And I see Ronan Catholicism.
Good point brother. From here on out I will refer to them as early church leaders instead and will be changing it in the title of this thread. Hope that's ok.
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Oracio
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| | 2014/7/18 20:21 | Profile | TMK
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| | Re: | | Frank---
I have a sort of strange and unsettling question for you. Not long ago I read that one of the recent popes (not sure which) was part of a high satanic mass that took place in the Vatican that included sexual perversion and child sacrifice and many other dignitaries were present. Do you know anything about this and might this be true? I think some priest named Malcolm somebody wrote a book about it.
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Todd
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| | 2014/7/18 20:49 | Profile | Oracio
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Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | I think it can be very easy for us to misunderstand one another in discussing this issue, therefore the need to try to explain our terms and make any necessary distinctions in meanings.
When it comes to the issue of church leadership, the RCC's view is radically different from the Protestant view. The RCC teaches that Peter was the first pope and that the pope is infallible and is to be highly revered as thee leader of the whole Church, without question. They teach that the pope has the same type of apostolic authority as the 12 apostles. Furthermore, RCC teaches that popes and bishops and priests are to be celibate. And they teach that their extra-biblical traditions invented by church leaders are binding on God's people as much as God's Word.
The protestant view is that there is no such thing as a pope over the whole Church and there are no more authoritative apostles as the 12, but that Jesus is the Head of the Church and every local church is accountable to Him. Christ and His Word are the final authority, not any human leaders or traditions. Yes, there are leaders in the Church but not in the same way as in the RCC. Two completely different types of leadership.
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Oracio
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| | 2014/7/18 20:51 | Profile | MaryJane
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| | Re: | | Greetings Frank
Thank you brother sharing these things here with everyone. Sadly there are many who are deceived into thinking the RCC is not so bad. Many think it just another christian church, nothing could be further from the truth. We need to pray for those lost in the lies of the catholic teaching, that their eyes be opened and they come to JESUS and repent.
You wrote:But, praise the Lord, millions of Catholics over the centuries, by the power of the Holy Spirit have came out of this great deception. They are a testimony and a trophy of Gods grace and mercy. That ones so raised and soaked in deception can find the truth and be delivered is a mighty miracle. Long may those miracles continue............bro frank
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Yes praise GOD for HIS mercy and grace and give thanks to HIM for those of us who have come to know JESUS and LORD and Savior. Amen to what you have shared and thank you.
God bless
mj |
| | 2014/7/18 21:29 | Profile | Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
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Whittier CA USA
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Sadly there are many who are deceived into thinking the RCC is not so bad. Many think it just another christian church, nothing could be further from the truth. We need to pray for those lost in the lies of the catholic teaching, that their eyes be opened and they come to JESUS and repent.
Amen. I too have had some experience with the RCC though not nearly as much as you and Frank. As a kid my mom took us to both types of churches, Protestant and Catholic. It was by attending both that I saw which was closer to the truth. It seemed that in the Protestant church there was more reverence for God and His Word. When I would go to the RCC I noticed that no one carried Bibles and right after the mass people would pop open their beers on the church parking lot and start downing them right there. I know full well how serious the deception is in the RCC. It is grieving when I consider it. I know that in Protestant churches there is also deception and even in solid churches there are many who are not truly saved. But by and large there is way more serious deception in the RCC and it is filled with way more lost people, people who worship and pray to Mary and the saints and statues and practice penance and say vain repetitious prayers and confess to priests and the list goes on and on. Not too far from my home there is a big statue of Mary on a front yard and I see many groups of people standing in front of it gazing at it in deep wonder. It grieves me every time I see that.
Knowing how serious it is I want no part of it or its history.
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Oracio
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| | 2014/7/18 21:48 | Profile |
| | Greg | | I cant believe what you just wrote to Blaine.
i'm too tired to respond, properly....i'm just shocked. |
| | 2014/7/18 22:07 | | sermonindex
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Online! | | Re: Greg | | Quote:
I cant believe what you just wrote to Blaine.
i'm too tired to respond, properly....i'm just shocked.
Dear brother, I am sorry these things shock you, I am just trying to encourage saints to consider to learn from church history and not just blanket statement it as black and white, wrong and right in large sums. The early church (leaders) fathers have much to teach evangelicals.
I see the admonition to call no man teacher also not obeyed by evangelism at large. We have to really consider what the Lord was saying, many other statement of our Lord could be taken in such a way and are.
Paul called himself a father:
New International Version
1 Corinthians 4:15
Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
again I am not advocating RCC I am simply encouraging saints to learn from church history some things that evangelicals perhaps could learn. It takes humility to say we are not perhaps right or perfect in our understanding of church.
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| | 2014/7/18 22:43 | Profile | Oracio
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| | Re: | | Since I didn't find any RCC error in the writings of Polycarp of Smyrna and Clement of Rome, I am thinking it may not have been fair to include in the title of this thread, "Cultish or Not?". Therefore I will remove that part from the title.
That said, it still seems to me from the little I've read that much RCC error can be traced back to much earlier than some have suggested here. But I'll have to do more research to completely confirm that with quotes.
I know that definitely in the writings of Augustine there is much clear RCC dogma that is of grave concern and I would definitely not recommend His writings.
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Oracio
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| | 2014/7/18 23:24 | Profile |
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