| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Oracio wrote Quote:
We know that someone can be ordained as a minister and minister for many years and not be converted. There are countless testimonies like that.
Indeed so, but Wesley's life history is not that of a man who was unsaved without knowledge of the gospel of salvation by faith. By his own account, in 1725, he read Bishop Taylors 'Rule and Exercises of Holy Living and Dying' and here it seems he was introduced to the doctrine of holiness. He was convicted by the writing and said that he resolved to dedicate ALL of his life to God, that every part of his life (not some only) must either be a sacrifice to God or to himself, and thereby the devil. This is common to many in their Christian walk that there is an area that they have not submitted. From 1725 Wesley was devoted to teaching the doctrine and running the Holy Club for the goal of achieving that of which he was yearning, and preaching it to others.
In 1726, he read Kempis' 'Christian Pattern', note another book on sanctification, then a few years later, William Law's 'Christian Perfection' a well known and respected teacher of holiness doctrine. He says that he saw the impossibility of being half a Christian. Some say that they are convicted that they are only 'playing at' being a Christian especially when comparing themselves with the Apostles and other believers of note.The questionaire was produced to have that effect on men and to make them seek to show forth holiness.
After 1729 he really began to study the Bible earnestly and realised that he must have the mind of Christ. In 1733 he preached on 'Circumcision of the Heart' (holiness) 1735, he went to America then as we know, in 1738 he had his Aldersgate experience.
If we carefully read his sermon 'Circumcision' there is no doubt that he is saved. The time he took from first hearing of the requirement of holiness to the time when he attended Aldersgate was 13 years in fact, is typical of the pattern in others of the same ilk. During this time the Holy Spirit was doing His work in John, stripping him of all confidence in himself, and building up a longing in him to lead to the crisis when he could launch himself without reservation into the arms of the Saviour for the implantation of a new heart which will enable him to be freed from the power and presence of sin.
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They may strive to achieve such a perfection in their own strength without God and fail for years on end. That was the case with Whitefield and the Wesley brothers until they gave up looking to themselves and their performances for salvation and began looking unto Jesus by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Indeed yes, believers do strive for years but in their own strength, that is the ones who have not settled in their 'lees' which unfortunately is only too common especially today. Much preaching is in the 'try harder' vein and amounts to nothing more than legalism. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that man can be holy and John had already learnt that and sought it as history shows until he found it.
I will quote again the sermon in question although reading any of his during his pre Aldersgate experience will show that it was not a man unaware of the true gospel, preaching in such a manner.
"3. That "circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;" -- that the distinguishing mark of a true follower of Christ, of one who is in a state of acceptance with God, is not either outward circumcision, or baptism, or any other outward form, but *a right state of soul, a mind and spirit renewed after the image of Him that created it;* -- is one of those important truths that can only be spiritually discerned. And this the Apostle himself intimates in the next words, -- *"Whose praise is not of men, but of God."* As if he had said, "Expect not, whoever thou art, who thus followest thy great Master, that the world, the one who follow him not, will say, `Well done, good and faithful servant!' Know that the circumcision of the heart, the seal of thy calling, is foolishness with the world. Be content to wait for thy applause till the day of thy Lord's appearing. In that day shalt thou have praise of God, in the great assembly of men and angels."
Again he says *a right state of soul, a mind and spirit renewed after the image of Him that created it;* and *"Whose praise is not of men, but of God."* showing that he preached the new birth which is a work performed by God alone.
You have accused me of altering history to enable my own theology but I maintain that it is you instead who is doing so. You have not yet shown any evidence that John was an unsaved man either in his sermons or his reading habits. |
|  2014/6/6 4:56 | | TMK
Member
Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA
| | Re: | | quote: "But I'll share another passage that has a list of exhortations, and tell me if this is simply descriptive and not also exhortative."
No one here (at least not me) is saying that as true Christians our lives should not be evidencing the fruits of the Spirit as listed by Paul, nor are we saying that our lives should not look like the good stuff Paul lists in Gal. 5. Conversely, our lives should not have the bad junk that Paul lists in Gal. 5 IF we are true Christians.
The issue on the table is how do we get there. Do we do it by reading a checklist of every good thing we could be doing and beat ourselves up in those areas where we fail?
Or do we do it by cultivating a deep and submissive relationship with our Lord and master Jesus Christ, who will live through us if only we allow Him to do so?
True Christianity is not a matter of DOING. It is a matter of BEING. If I am looking at a list I am not looking at Jesus. If I am striving in self-effort I am not resting in the Lord.
In other words, if we are living true Biblical Christianity, we don't need to consult a list. We ARE the list. To the extent I am NOT the list is evidence that I have not yielded fully to the Master.
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Todd
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| | 2014/6/6 6:26 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
1. AM I CONSCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY CREATING THE IMPRESSION THAT I AM BETTER THAN I REALLY AM? IN OTHER WORDS AM I A HYPOCRITE? I'm not sure I really understand that one. If you claim to be a Christian, in one sense you're either counted with the hypocrites or you're soundly saved. If you are a hypocrite you will live a life characterized by continuous and unrestrained hypocrisy. But if you are a true believer there will still remain sin to a certain degree and when you sin you will be committing hypocrisy in that instant. The question to me doesn't sound that biblical.
It is directed to those who in all likelihood are fooling themselves and are not seeing their sins whereas others see them clearly, or even trying to be what they are not like acting so nice on a Sunday and shouting at their wives and kids when they get home. Many believers are guilty of this and it is easy to go down the slippery slope in thinking that we are forgiven so its okay. It is deep in our nature to think like this. |
| | 2014/6/6 6:37 | | Oracio
Member
Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | I think some of us have been talking past each other here and I think I know at least in part the reason.
After sister Leslie opened up this thread some starting seeing it as promoting and certain type of "check list" mentality where one goes through a list and checks off things they have done and beats themselves for things they haven't done. I think that has been an unfair and false accusation to bring on this thread. No one is vying for that type of mentality regarding lists of exhortations. The thing that has been encouraged is meditation and reflection on biblical principles from God's Word. Asking the Lord to search our hearts and lives based on His Word. But many see that as condemnation and having a "check-list" mentality. I think it shows how little we value the many exhortations from His Word.
No one is saying we grow in our own strength apart from Christ. We know it's about Christ in us the hope of glory. But His Word is very specific and He would have us reflect on our lives and to be honest with Him and with ourselves.
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In other words, if we are living true Biblical Christianity, we don't need to consult a list. We ARE the list. To the extent I am NOT the list is evidence that I have not yielded fully to the Master.
But God's Word is our guide to true godliness-2Tim.3:16. We become Christlike by meditating on His Word and allowing it to search the deepest parts of our inner being.
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If we carefully read his sermon 'Circumcision' there is no doubt that he is saved.
Brenda, Wesley himself said he wasn't yet saved until 1738, but you want to try to prove otherwise to support your sinless perfectionism. I think I'll rather believe the man himself. We've gone through this issue quite a bit in the past on this forum and I don't want to start again on this thread. Thank you.
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Oracio
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| | 2014/6/6 10:15 | Profile | ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| | Re: | | The only self examination that is worth its salt is that which strips every last vestige away of self righteousness(works of the flesh). Nothing else.
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Zeke Oosthuis
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| | 2014/6/6 10:59 | Profile |
| | Re: Who examines us? | | Psalm 139:23-24
Search me, O God, and know heart.
Try me and know My anxious thoughts.
And see if there be any hurtful way in.me,
And lead me in the everlasting way.
John 14:8-11
And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgement; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you know longer see me; and concerning judgement, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Brethren in.light of scripture above God is the one who must examine our hearts. Even taking a check list of whatever it may be we are going to come up deceived. Jeremiah reminds us our heart is deceitful and wicked who can understand it.
Ultimately it is the work of the Holy Spirit who must examine our hearts. As He convicts us of where we fall short them we confess our sins, be cleaned in His blood, yield the throne of our lives to Christ and move on on our relationship to Him.
Bearmastet |
| | 2014/6/6 11:01 | |
| | Re: | | Oracio
That's fine l will say no more apart to comment that you are refusing to look at the evidence when your interpretation of the term saved may not be the same as his, or perhaps the texts are corrupted but that's your choice. I could never be so sure in the face of such contradiction. |
| | 2014/6/6 11:07 | |
| | Re: Test of religion or relationship | | 2 Cor. 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you---unless you fail the test.
Earlier in this thread brother Paul West gave marvelous insights into the above verse. What is the Apostle Paul calling us to test? What is he calling us to examine? Is he calling us to look at a check list to see where we have measured up?
The Apostle Paul is urging his hearers to test and examine if Christ in His Spirit be in us. Are we in Christ and He be in us.
Brethren the test is relationship to Jesus and not a religious observance to a check list.
I believe TMK summed it up when he said in his post if Christ be in us and we be in Him then we are the list. We are living out the reality and the virtues of Jesus by His indwelling presence in us.
If the Law of Moses be the ultimate check list Paul tells us in Rom. 8:4 that the requirement if the law is already fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
In Heb. 8:10 the Spirit writes His laws on our minds and hearts in relationship to the Father. So again saints it is relationship to God we are called to by the inward work of the Spirit in our hearts.
The New Testament is our guide of how to live in the New Covenant. But it is internalized by the work of the Holy Spirit writing it in our hearts.
Bearmaster :-)
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| | 2014/6/6 11:29 | | Oracio
Member
Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA
| | Re: | | I think another problem is that when it comes to the Christian life and God's Word, some of us subconsciously make things out to be extremely mystical or more complicated than they are, when in reality they are more practical and down to earth than we may realize.
I’ll put it another way. There is no doubt that there is definitely a spiritual and supernatural element to God’s Word and the Christian life and only those who are born again can truly understand them. But for those who are born of the Spirit God’s Word is very practical and not as extremely mystical as we may be accustomed to thinking.
I’ll give another example of how God’s Word exhorts us in specific and practical ways. Ephesians 5:8-9 says, “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth).”
So let’s think about some of that for a minute. Paul exhorts us to walk in the Light, and then gives us virtues as examples of what walking in the light looks like. The first is goodness, then righteousness, then truth. Again, if we are going through this passage slowly and come to each of those three virtues God may point out something amiss in us through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. This is where things get practical and down to earth. Paul lists those virtues not simply as descriptive but also prescriptive, as a challenge for us.
Now, there are different ways we can approach this. We can approach it with a “check list” mentality and deceive ourselves, or we can approach it with sensitivity to the conviction of God’s Spirit. All we’re saying is that the latter is what we should apply to our walk and not be so quick to dismiss the conviction of the Spirit.
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Oracio
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| | 2014/6/6 12:29 | Profile |
| | Re: | | There seems to be at least three or four parallel threads going on here from what I can tell.
First, the original post was addressing self examination from a "self-discipline" point of view. This is well and good and is scriptural. I don't believe that the OP or others intended the list to be a formula to follow to save ourselves. But even on that note I believe there must be caution in following the examples of men as we disciple our lives in our pursuit of godliness. The reason is that in keeping tabs on our progress, this almost always leads to pride which leads to looking down on others who have not as yet attained to our lofty level of holiness. I can read some of this spirit in some of the replies here, where there are even angry rebukes towards others, even calling into question the sincerity of their walk with Christ.
Secondly, this thread has also segued into a discussion about salvation in general and it only has because of the context of the Holiness Club List...written by unregenerate men in their quest to be made more holy. There are some very important discussion points that have been raised about this that some here are dismissing, even with disdain!. Please let's not do that, but let us conduct ourselves with love and self control towards one another and be careful before we jump to conclusions about the state of another persons heart on this forum.
Thirdly, many have rightly pointed out that there are descriptive instructions given by the apostles on how we ought to live. I don't think anyone can disagree with this, however as Blaine and TMK and others have pointed out, when we have the indwelling Christ, all such lists are eventually internalized...we live in obedience to Him, the indwelling law giver and as such a list of rules should not be necessary.
But what then do we say about the "lists" and instructions that are found in scripture? I believe it is a matter of maturity. For a person or pagan community who have just come to know Christ, these instructions are absolutely essential. It is the same way that we teach little children how to eat their food and say their first words; but those instructions become unnecessary for a grown man who has been fully taught. So it is with those who have walked with The Lord for many years, they know and continually practice the instructions in the Word and live out on a daily basis the commandments of Christ. But more so they go beyond the written word and are "taught of The Lord" in that He leads them into all truth, even more restrictive in some cases than generic biblical instructions.
Finally I want to come full circle back to the list. Why is it that we feel "challenged" when we read such things? Why such feelings of inadequacy? Why would you beat yourself up (and please don't pretend that is not what happens) over such lofty standards held up by these men? If you intend to "push" yourself with any of these questions then please GO ALL THE WAY...just as they did and beat your body into submission and leave everything that this world provides as you pursue the same goals and quests of the holiness club! Because dear brothers and sisters unless you are prepared to go all the way with it as the writers intended, then just leave such lists alone and stick to the things that the Holy Spirit leads you into as you devote yourself to Jesus Christ more and more each day, making sure that our lives are all about Him. |
| | 2014/6/6 12:30 | |
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