Budgie,

I took a look at your post on Wrath. I had not realised you had put so many different posts on this subject. I was particularly interested to read your post on the 'until He be taken out of the way' passage in 2 Thessalonians. I also thought that the majority of translations of this verse did not make sense and the popular pre-trib explanation was self contradicting. So thanks for your post on the alternative reading of this. It makes much more sense in this way.(It is self contradicting as it says in 2 Thess.2 that the gathering together of the saints on the Day of the Lord cannot happen until the anti-Christ is revealed, but then they say that the anti-Christ will not be revealed until the church is raptured??!!)

On the Wrath issue, are saying that you believe that the church will go through the majority of the tribulation, but be resurrected / raptured before the 7 bowls of wrath are poured out in Rev 16? Or do you mean the wrath of the 2nd death? It did not seem clear to me when I read your post on this.

_________________
Dave

As to your question regarding whether the Church goes through the Tribulation, first of all I will say this, in the New Testament there are many references that are made where the believers in Christ are called Saints, are called Brethren, are called the Elect, are called the Believers, are called those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ and for this reason there is much that applies to us in the Book of revelations. Also the only reason that the Church is mentioned in the first 3 chapters in Revelations is because Jesus and John was making direct reference to those specific churches in the specific area around the island of Patmos.All of the Book of Revelations was given to all of the Churches and we as the Church are to learn all that has been spoken, Jesus prepares His people to overcome.
Secondly every Prophetic book gives pictures and these pictures overlap on top of each other to reveal a fuller picture, an example of this is the visions of Daniel, they all come together and give an indication of time, sequence and revealing of the end times and the reign of the Antichrist as well as the Coming of Christ and the Resurrection as well as the destruction of the Antichrist and the Reign of Christ on Earth.
Revelations is the same, there are many key points in the Book of Revelations where you can see the overlapping.
It is of great value to look at what events are spoken of between the 6th seal and 7th seal, the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet and again the 6th and 7 th bowl.
There are so many references made to Christ and what takes place.The First resurrection does not take place until the culmination of these events, the bride has not made herself ready until the culmination of these events, the bride has not been clothed with the righteousness of the saints until the culmination of these events and Jesus does not begin His reign, destruction of the Antichrist and the binding of Satan until the culmination of these events.Blessed is He that is in the 1st Resurrection for there is no fear of the second death judgement at the end of the 1000 years, and they will reign with Christ on earth.
Study the scripture and keep your mind open to the word of God.
When you look at that specific Wrath word used in Thessalonians and the promise it is True, for those that have died in Christ they are not appointed to Gods Wrath on the Day of Judgement at the end of the 1000 year reign, as they are already judged and found innocent in the Blood of Christ and will be in the 1st resurrection, for those that are living on the earth at the coming of Christ and that are under the blood of Christ they also will be delivered in that same 1st Resurrection and will not be on earth when Jesus tramples the winepress of the wrath of God.
The words of Christ are true we do obtain salvation and not the wrath.

One thing that amazes me today is how much the church separates itself from the jewishness of christ and of the commonwealth of israel having no desire to celebrate christ in the feasts of god but at the same time use a jewish wedding analogy to say that they alone in their gentile position are the bride and then support a pretrib resurrection we dont suffer but everyone else suffers apparently still under the same blood of christ. Paul stated that we who were gentiles that had no god have been grafted into the true olive tree and that we are now part of the commonwealth of israel. The partition has been destroyed through christ and we and the believing jews are now one man. One body in christ one bride in christ

Hi Just in'
Anyone with a tribulation view uses timelines.If you dont have a time line then you cant have a tribulation view'
Yours Staff

Hi Sree,
The wrath of God is not poured out when the church is present.
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie,
Here is one scripture that speaks clearly of a pre tribulation rapture.Before you say anything let me point out that in reality their is no such thing as a mid tribulation view.A mid tribulation view correctly says that the "great tribulation"is the second half of the 7 year period.This Rapture happens mid "7 year" and pre "great tribulation"

Rev 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them

Yours Staff

LET US ALWAYS REASON WITH SCRIPTURE
I have used scriptural backing and scriptural reasoning for all of my threads focusing on the truthful words spoken by Jesus and Paul, not my own theory,I have let the word of God do the talking, I have used other verses that use the same greek word as references as to the meaning of the word.I have used the prophecies spoken by Jesus and Paul not a man made timeline.I have stuck to the true word that has been spoken, it is so important to reason in Love and in truth. There is no lie in the threads that I have spoken.
It is so important in these last days to have sound doctrine and to search the scriptures so that we may know. I do nothing but encourage other followers of Christ to seek the most loving and intimate relationship with God and so deep that no matter what comes they do not give up.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I certainly do not know all truth, but what I do declare is because I have studied in great depth and because of the revealing of the Holy Spirit, when interpreted properly they always bring glory to God and most importantly align with other verses, there is no conflict.
There is only one truth, one doctrine to the Return of Christ, not the many theories by man that bring so much confusion and disunity.
Jesus said in the last days men will want to have their ears tickled and Paul stated that their will be many false doctrines.
I have never stated a mid trib resurrection, and I don't use timelines, I use Prophecy and the word of God, it is Jesus that spoke the order of events and Jesus that gave the number of days in revelations and the angel of God that gave the same number of days in Daniel. God has always been precise with the number of days and the sequence of events regarding prophecy, look at the 1st coming of Christ.
There certainly is no mid trib Resurrection and no Coming of Christ midtrib as there is no scripture to support this. as per you using the death and resurrection of the 2 witnesses as a pretrib reason this does not come together at all, the reason being is as follows.
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

It clearly places The 2 witnesses as ministering at the very same time that the Holy City is being trampled under foot by the Gentiles.
This trample in the greek means as follows
G3961

πατέω
patéō; contracted patṓ, fut. patḗsō, from pátos (n.f.), a path, a beaten way. To tread, trample (Luk_10:19; Sept.: Isa_32:20; Isa_42:5); to tread as a winepress (Rev_14:20; Rev_19:15); to trample upon or have in subjection (Luk_21:24; Rev_11:2; Sept.: Isa_1:12). See lēnós (G3025), winepress (Sept.: Isa_16:10; Lam_1:15).

I put it to you especially when looking at all other prophetic books (when in the 7 year period does the Holy City of God get Trample under foot? )In the first 3 1/2 years when there is peace or in the last 3 1/2 years when the beast begins to reign for the 3 1/2 years?

Not just this but the 2 witnesses bring much torment to those on the earth as follows

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

and also

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

I don't think it is coincidence that the Torment and the plagues and the turning the water into blood, and no rain and sending fire down to destroy the wicked sounds very familiar to what is happening during the seals, trumpets and bowls.

Not just that but look at what happens not long after they arise in their body.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Did you notice that the 7th Angel sounded which is just after the earthquake and just after the 2 witnesses coming back to life

It says the very hour that they arose there was a earthquake and 7000 men were slain , if by what you are saying that these 2 witnesses are pretrib then You have a major problem as they arise just before the 7th Trumpet and Just before Christ begins His reign and Just before the Mystery of God is Completed.
You have a major problem because by what you have said you are implying that the pretrib rapture takes place between the 6th and 7th Trumpet, that is a major problem for you.

AND IT SAYS THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD HAVE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD AND JESUS SHALL REIGN FOREVER.

Do you remember what was said earlier about when the 7 th Trumpet is about to sound.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

THE MYSTERY OF GOD THAT ALL OF THE SERVANTS THE PROPHETS HAVE DECLARED WILL BE FINISHED THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHALL BE FINISHED.

And as per your statement of Those that believe in tribulation use timelines, all I am using is the words of Christ and His timeline as in Matthew 24 where Jesus so very clearly states that His coming and Him gathering us together to Him after the Tribulation is as you said(using timelines)
This is not timelines that I am using it is the word of God and Prophecy in which God himself has declared to show us His sovereignty and Power, if it were not so He would have told us so.

Please use scripture for reasoning and not theories with no scriptural backing.

Also there is no mention as to whether the 2 witnesses are resurrected in the New Immortal body or just a resurrection body. Elijah and Enoch I believe were taken up into heaven and we know that they did not have the Immortal body because scripture tells us that Jesus was the Firstborn, he was the Firstfruits and afterward at His coming the Resurrection will take place and we will receive the same body. There is an order as to the resurrection.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Hi Just in,
Again I point out that their is "tribulation" and the "great tribulation" and this is usually confused mostly by post tribulationists or people who wrongly believe that their is no "great tribulation"
Although Revelation is not Chronological the "Great Tribulation" is : their are events before the trib,their is a 31/2 year period and a second 31/2 year period followed by event after the 7 year period.That is a Timeline.
Yours Staff