| Poster | Thread | Lordoitagain
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Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 632
Monroe, LA - USA
| | Re: Amrkelly - sorry, I've been mispelling it. | | In the new testament, we find this:
Heb 12:8 Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].(2)
Heb 12:9 Moreover, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we yielded [to them] and respected [them for training us]. Shall we not much more cheerfully submit to the Father of spirits and so [truly] live?
Heb 12:10 For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but He disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness.
Heb 12:11 For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful; but afterwards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it [a harvest of fruit which consists in righteousness--in conformity to God's will in purpose, thought, and action, resulting in right living and right standing with God]. [AMP]
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Since his audience was Hebrew, it is obvious that he is referring to the same kind of chastisement that Hebrews were accustomed to (found in the book of Proverbs).
Quote:
Some of us actually know what parental violence really means. Not the simplicity of having our bottoms smacked but having boiling liquids poured over our bodies, having our feet beaten with wooden rods, having our limbs twisted in rage and in finality having to endure all of this only to be compelled to agree with that which was false in the enquiry of violence.
It is sad to me that you were obviously abused as a child, but is is more sad to me that because of your abuse, you are rejecting God's plan for loving discipline which includes some physical pain. Those of us who were beaten with switches and belts by loving parents who did it for our good are deeply appreciative and eternally grateful for the pain that was inflicted on our physical bodies under the plan of lovingly training us and using the pain inflicted in that manner.
Your reasoning is based on your personal experiences, but any such reasoning which goes against God's Word is like all such chaff which will be blown away ... but God's Word endures forever.
When one of the founders of your branch of theology takes a such a strong stand in favor of the discipline and chastisement found in the book of Proverbs (the use of the rod), it should make you stop and realize that your view which has been tainted by bad experiences could be horribly mistaken.
Many young ladies who grow up getting raped by men in their families lose all confidence in God's plan (of one man with one woman until death) and feel perfectly justified becoming lesbians, but it still doesn't change God's perfect plan regardless of their bad experiences.
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Michael Strickland
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|  2013/5/31 10:23 | Profile |
| | Re: | | In the new testament, we find this
..
The words here are written to fully grown men and women and it speaks about the discipline and the love of God regarding legitimacy. Next time an angel of God descends into your church with a wooden rod and beats you into submission, just let me know right!
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| | 2013/5/31 10:41 | | pilgrim777
Member
Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211
| | Re: | | Amr,
It is clear that you are responding in the most extreme sense in order to win your point.
You castigate fellow believers as religious bigots and other names in order to paint an extreme picture of them.
You have been abused and are now seem to be abusive yourself, but rather with your mouth and pen.
Emotional abuse upon children is much worse than a switch.
As I said before, you are superimposing your childhood experience upon the people of God today. You have not known a father's love in terms of godly correction, therefore your view is skewed.
And you are ready and willing to use the world as your "bully" against your brethren. Is it possible that you have not been healed of abuse and have found your own sophisticated ways to abuse others? Please be truthful. Is it a practice of yours to pound people into submission with your denigrating words?
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| | 2013/5/31 11:10 | Profile | Lordoitagain
Member
Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 632
Monroe, LA - USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
In the new testament, we find this
..
The words here are written to fully grown men and women and it speaks about the discipline and the love of God regarding legitimacy. Next time an angel of God descends into your church with a wooden rod and beats you into submission, just let me know right!
When bitter experiences in a person's life close his mind to reality, no amount of proof can suffice to open such a mind to accept the truth.
Thousands perhaps millions of people could testify of loving parents who used rods, belts, switches etc. to discipline and train them in a good and positive manner, but it still would not change the mind of a person who bitterly equates all pain inflicted on children with his own childhood horrors.
Such a mind is not capable of unbiasedly reasoning nor learning on the subject ... unless a miracle happens to heal that heart that is still hurting.
_________________
Michael Strickland
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| | 2013/5/31 11:32 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
And you are ready and willing to use the world as your "bully" against your brethren. Is it possible that you have not been healed of abuse and have found your own sophisticated ways to abuse others? Please be truthful. Is it a practice of yours to pound people into submission with your denigrating words? pilgrim777
Thats a few questions and the answer to all of them is no! I am not willing to use the world as my instrument. The world is God's instrument. I though you would have understood that. On the other hand I make use of what was given me in Christ. I thought you would have understood that as well. Its called a rod.
Just to make this intelligible I am not superimposing anything on any one. I have had contact with child protection officers for more than 28 years, not to mention the preceding contact I had as a child with the same. I have read Sociology, Psychology and Criminology at degree level. I know social workers, police officers, judges and court officials and my claims are not spuriously made they are grounded in certain knowledge. And all of this I count as but rubbish to the certainty of Christ crucified for sin. Nor do I see their existence as anything more that a rod of God against unrighteousness. I have no illusions about child abuse, apart from my own personal experiences, which I equally count as nothing, I have by the grace of God a truly sound and unshakable faith in Christ Jesus based on the revelation of the Father and Christ His Son. Nothing will persuade me that allowing a child to simply follow their natural and [childish] inclinations will prove to be a good outcome, and similarly nothing will persuade me that beating babies, howsoever lightly, and well intended will either result in a good benefit to the baby, or escape prosecution in the years to come. The legislature is in the making and it will come. We need wisdom in how we express ourselves.
There is a reason for this post and all those posts which I make with such determination. It has to do with reality of the times we live in. I have only ever smacked my own children just once each when they were between two and three years old. It was sufficient for them to learn instantly what fear is and by that means they no doubt comprehended the benefit of obedience. It was not done as a means of teaching them about guilt, sin, hell, heaven or anything else, as I have said before. It is a simple physical reality of experience that fear of physical pain produces an immediate outcome in little children. Its not some super spiritual insight as it is being claimed. Of course they are all adults now and they even have little babies of their own. When this somewhat vulgar knowledge which even the heathen comprehend is made into a doctrine it produces another outcome altogether. And we ought not to confuse that with what our own parents did because we can now forgive them knowing a more perfect truth.
I don't have a skewed view of a father's love or for that matter a mothers love, I have no view to it at all. My father was absent and my mother was mentally ill. Yet by grace I do have a sound comprehension of the Father in heaven and a security in Him which has proved sufficient for me through all the ups and downs of life. In short brother my life is a complete contradiction of reason. That's the gospel brother it called the grace and love of God. As for everything else they are just rods in His hands. As the Lord has said, stumbling must come, but woe to those by whom it comes. Its all about the time we live in brother it has nothing to do with doctrine or reason. It has to do with reality of the times. |
| | 2013/5/31 12:01 | | pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211
| | Re: | | God used the Children of Israel as a "rod" against His enemies and He uses the Church as a rod to discipline members of the Body as in 1 Corinthians 5. Although, church discipline is somewhat non-existent anymore.
But your entitled to your opinion. I just disagree with your opinion as not being in harmony with my understanding of God's word. I also disagree with your characterization of what abuse is.
Interesting how one man's concept of love is another man's concept of abuse. Unbelievers think God is abusive not understanding the principles behind His ways. |
| | 2013/5/31 12:59 | Profile | TMK
Member
Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA
| | Re: | | I wonder if there are any adults who received "lovingly administered corporal punishment" when they were young and did not turn out so hot? And I wonder if there are any adults who never got a paddling in their life and turned out wonderfully (like my mother and my wife)?
I guess my point is that corporal punishment (or lack thereof) is no guarantee of anything, although scripture certainly seems to condone it.
Pilgrim wrote:
"Unbelievers think God is abusive not understanding the principles behind His ways."
I think it is safe to say that even believers (like me) have difficulty understanding the principles behind some of His ways (e.g. Num 31:17-18)
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Todd
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| | 2013/5/31 15:12 | Profile | pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211
| | Re: | | tuc
Quote:
I think it is safe to say that even believers (like me) have difficulty understanding the principles behind some of His ways (e.g. Num 31:17-18)
Granted. Though we do not understand, we do not consider His ways foolish. Because we know Him, we know His ways are according to His character which is always motivated by love. |
| | 2013/5/31 16:07 | Profile | proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936
| | Re: | | witnesses for biblical chastisment
1. The Scripture!
in all of this discussion, not one Scripture has been provided that would convince any Unbiased Observer that the Scripture is opposed to a loving use of a switch by an emotionaly stable parent for child training.
however many scriptures have been given that support the usage of the rod in child training!
The meaning of rod has been challenged but not because Scripture indicates nor the Spirit indicates that the traditional understanding of the Rod is incorrect, But instead because some have personal emotional biasness on the subject.
2. Inward Certainty!
All men hold the truth, and I do not believe that this subject is any different. If we are honest we know the truth on this subject!
The clear reality is that this is evident even in those whom are deeply opposed on this subject, in that they almost always delibertly and dishonestly go to great lengths to misconstrue, exagerate and wrongfully sterotype others inorder to make their opinion sound more convincing, and often stoop to the lowest of the low with threats similar to the attacks that have been presented in this disscusion.
3. Those more Godly than I !
I am aware of several of The Godly preachers on SI who publicaly defend the use of a spanking when it comes to the Godly upbringing of children, I personally am not aware of even one that has openly opposed the traditional and biblical perspective.
4 Worldly Perspective !
Secular society is becoming more and more hostile to traditional biblical chastisment, almost to the point of forcing Christians to stop raising their children in away that was considered a social norm less than a half a century ago. The enlightened Christian is well aware of the days that we are living in and the reason that the (little g) god of this world is so opposed to biblical chastisment.
Edit: another witness :
5. success !
The success of men whom strongly advocate and even teach the biblical loving useage of the rod. success like what the Pearl's, Kenaston's and Daniel's have had in child rearing, causes me to listen and learn when they speak on the subject of child traning,( I still have much to learn from these wise bible believing preachers on the topic of child training)
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| | 2013/5/31 21:29 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
In all of this discussion, not one Scripture has been provided that would convince any Unbiased Observer that the Scripture is opposed to a loving use of a switch by an emotionaly stable parent for child training.
however many scriptures have been given that support the usage of the rod in child training!
The meaning of rod has been challenged but not because Scripture indicates nor the Spirit indicates that the traditional understanding of the Rod is incorrect, But instead because some have personal emotional biasness on the subject.
In all of this discussion brother there are not a number of people who have opposed the centrality of the term rod and what that means. It has been myself alone. This doesn't surprise me. Nor does the fact that no one has been able to openly acknowledge in plain English that "switch" does not mean something vague and fuzzy, it means a piece of wood. In short it means a rod of wood. If we are going to insist that the biblical word rod as used in Proverbs is not interpreted this way then by all means speak on. And regardless of the fact that some brethren have imaginatively drawn the physical instrument to mean other things, such as spoons, belts, whips, and even plumbing pipes, the meaning of the scripture is clear enough. No one has said that it is not clear. What has been said is that it is become a necessity in this day to exercise a greater wisdom because of the day in which we live. Thus I speak of the hand and you speak of a switch. The hand is attached to ones own body so that if it offends you and you obey Christ you can cut it off. The switch can be thrown away and then repented of and taken up once more.
Exodus 21:20 is the first biblical use of the term rod as an instrument of punishment and it reads thus if a man strikes his male or female slave with the rod and he dies he shall be punished.
There are nine old testament references to the use of the rod in clear context of an individual being the object of discipline and they are all in Proverbs they are 10:13, 13:24, 14:3, 22:8, 22:15, 23:13, 23:14, 26:3 & 29:15.
Of these four verses speak of children and one verse speaks of a son. The other four speak of adults and have to do with either wisdom or else foolishness. In one instance the reference has specifically to do with anger leading to loss (Proverbs 22:8). Every other reference to the rod, rods etc in the Old Testament is self explanatory but has nothing whatsoever to do with children being beaten.
One verse which in the above list speaks volumes of itself. Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die (Proverbs 23:13). Contrast this verse with Exodus 21:20 above and then pause for a moment to reflect what might be the reality in all of this.
In the New Testament there is no reference to beating children whatsoever. The term rod is used ten times in total and when it is used in connection with regard to some one physically it is used just once in respect of Paul and Silas being beaten by order of the Magistrates at Philippi (Acts 16:22).
The one central characteristic of the term rod throughout the scriptures is that of Gods own dealings directly with His people, and the physical context is always in the physical consequences and judgements of God arising from wilful sin, whether famine, drought, sickness, disease, war and so on. In Revelation the term rod of iron is included in its meaning and speaks of Christ ruling over the nations during the millennial kingdom. It speaks of the Lord permitting no descent from His righteous reign over the nations. It is also worth remembering that during this time Satan is bound. In contrast when he is again released after the millennial kingdom he very quickly manages to find sufficient men to rebel with him once again.
In all of this we could say that wisdom asserts that disciplining your own children even to the extent that you beat them with a rod, reflects the wisdom of God given to Solomon.
Now some brethren having no wisdom of their own and go looking for a way to discipline their own children. They have no conviction of their own and so they take wisdom from other men, who say they have taken their wisdom from the scriptures.
Yet in the New Testament we read that in the past men disciplined their children as seemed proper and good to them (Hebrews 12:8-11). And as it was pointed out before hand by Lordoitagain this is written to the Jews, being they that were given the Scriptures in which are found the very Proverbs of Solomon. So ask yourselves a question if Proverbs is a prescription which is formed by a physical necessity to beat little children from the age of one year old, or even 6 months as some would have it, how then do men discipline their children as seemed proper and good to them? Does it amount to a licence to do as one pleases without consequence before men and God, or does it speak of reasonable understanding and parental concern?
Clearly in this there must lie something greater than a prescription of necessity. I would like to say that the real issue in all of this is parental authority and then wisdom, which produces discomfort and pain for a season......All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.........but does not equate to the discipline of God and His perfect benefit towards us who are true sons........but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness..........nor does the actions of fathers in doing that which [seems] proper and good to them necessarily mean that there actions are good. It is not so simple as you imagine.
If you being evil know how to give your children good things..........
Brethren if the unbeliever who is yet in the power of Satan understands that all we know is the prescription of wisdom and do not yet comprehend that we also remember that in us....that is, in the flesh, there is no good thing.......we will in the end find that they are become a rod for our backs. No one is forced to beat their children.....it is a matter of wisdom and this wisdom attends to the same evil flesh which we as their fathers gave them as an inheritance. Prescriptions do not lend themselves to being led of the Holy Spirit. They are given by another and are a requirement. God does not require us to beat our children with rods. He permits it of necessity [wisdom], comprehending that for some children it is indeed necessary because they have already gone astray. It is correction and reproof which is the true rod, and it is in the first instance of the mouth and not a piece of wood.
Finally although it would be possible to write a hundred pages on this subject, one thing lies central to the issue which cannot be ignored. This is the attitude which some men have, in the way they look at and understand their children, and by becoming teachers, other mens children also. This is the belief that correction is not simply a matter of addressing the disobedience of our children, but it is a training their very flesh to shrink back from all forms of disobedience by means of the rod before the child has even comprehended a word. If this was limited to being disciplined in the matter of natural demands, being a reasonable denial of the weakness of the flesh to demand continuous unreasoning attention, then this would be just fine when that is itself reasonable, but to assert that the flesh itself, soul and body, must be broken, is nothing less than wickedness regardless of the fact that God Himself will permit it. In this lies accountability whether we comprehend it not. Press on as you will, but don't be surprised if in the end you are held accountable by the nations. |
| | 2013/6/1 1:13 | |
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