Yea, I wasnt sure I was wording my question very clearly. Sorry about that. I talk with my hands a lot, it helps me verbalize, and I cant do that on here.

It's interesting that your back ground is what you saw in a Pentecostal church. That is what UP teaches, thats their doctrine, so naturally thats what everyone expected to see. And thats what you were conditioned for.

Others that did not grow up in that environment have a hard time with that.

And then there's me... your basic knot-head.

This is why we really have to be careful with our "experiences" because they are so tinted and tainted by the environment that conditioned us, know what I mean?

One thing you kept saying is concerning "having the Holy Spirit", as if some Christians dont have the Holy Spirit. Brother, thats an impossibility. I know this is probably just an issue of semantics, and you probably mean something else. I dont know. But every believer has the Holy Spirit. How can a believe even begin to live a life of holiness without the Holy Spirit? How can they learn scripture if they dont have the Holy Spirit to teach them as scripture says?

Now, I prefer the term I've heard called "Second Blessing".

I know there are accounts of believers in Acts who had not heard of the Holy Spirit and received the Holy Spirit when they heard. There seems to be a contradiction there that I dont quite understand. I know it's not a contradiction, I just dont know the answer. And I have never heard a convincing answer from any Pentecostals on this.

So here is where I am at with this, bro... I believe when God reaches down and saves a person He seals them with the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not come and live in their heart (He is on the thrown in Heaven), the Holy Spirit enters in. Thats the seal, the deposit if you will. The dowry.

Now, I am also convinced, as Martin Lloyd-Jones was that there is a second event subsequent from salvation. It is kind of like taking the relationship with God to a new level. A new level of surrender and intimacy with God.

SOMETIMES it is associated with tongues, and sometimes it is not. I know many people who have had this "second" experience with tongues, and many who have had this "second" experience without tongues.

I have witnessed the lives of both and I am convinced that God chooses to give some the gift of tongues and some He chooses not to... and all are by His will and not given based upon any of our own merit.

And I think my observations and experience coincide with scripture.

And that is how I have arrived at where I am at with this.

Brother, I like what you said about being more concerned about finding truth, even if it means repenting of our unbelief. Man, I am right there with you. This may surprise you, and some others, but I have done my share of repenting. I have had to seriously humble myself even here on this forum... a lot of people have forgotten about that, I guess. I haven't. I have also had to admit that I was wrong about some of my beliefs and understanding of the Bible.

A few years ago Reformed Theology was widely accepted on this forum... and I despised it. It was actually because of this forum and the loving brothers and sisters here that I began to seriously study it out and try to understand it, all the while planning to prove it wrong.

Fast forward to now... and most of those people are not active here anymore, and there is a new crowd of people that absolutely HATE Reformed Theology. And here I am... completely changed from my former stance on it! lol

God does have a sense of humor.

My point is we have to be willing to change when we discover we are wrong. I hope that I become more like that.

Anyway, so here we are... you now know more about me than you did a couple days ago. Wish you were closer, we could sit down over coffee and open our Bibles and talk scripture all day long. I would like that, brother. And I know for a fact both of us would walk away from that experience with completely different impressions of each other than we have this evening.

And your face would be sore from laughing so hard. That happens to people when they are around me for any length of time.

...I bet there are some people on this forum that find THAT hard to believe... lol (but it's true!)

Krispy

Oh boy, someone started a thread on this topic, what have we done? LOL

Thankyou krispy and approved for sticking it out. It has really helped me in my research into the topic. I would love to be a fly on the wall if you two ever got together.
I for one krispy, have found myself laughing at some of your comments. My son was in the back ground wondering what was wrong with me.
I am encouraged by the humility and perserverence to seek out the truth.
Pray for the rest of us who are on this same journey.
This forum has assured me at times that I am not insane.
God bless you all
Tim

i agree with krisspy regarding the seconed blessing sometimes contains toungs other times it doesnt


brothers i understand the scripture regarding acts that you speak of ,,,,,is simply for me that is, evedence ,of the seconed work of grace ,which is the baptisim of the holy spirit ,,,at that point of there walk in the faith of the lord jesus christ ,they had not yet recieved it ,,

i never new what the holy spirit was when i repented and believed ,neither did i no what the baptisim in the spirit was ,,but i had recieved the indweling of the holy spirit when i believed , but never new ,what was realy hapening to me ,,,,,,if paul came to my house months after i believed in jesus and was born again ,,i would have said the same as those deciples ,,,i havent even herd of the holy spirit

Hi everyone,

I have been away for a while and have really enjoyed the posting of Krispy & Approved. You guys hung in there and have really become a blessing on this thread.

Dear MJ,

I felt I needed to reply to your post with kindness and I hope you take it that way. From reading it I gathered you’ve let others or someone make you feel like your experience with God doesn’t measure up to having the Holy Spirit because of the tongues issue if I understand you right. There are things that I don’t necessarily agree with others on but I sometimes just let it go on by because I can’t say for sure about it because I don’t know their heart or where they are in their walk with God. Sometimes it is just plain ignorance and I just let it pass on by and sometimes I may reply and sometimes I’m ignorant about something myself.

I would like to say this to you because I have heard you testify before and I believe that you have a definite relationship with God. Don’t let anybody make you feel inferior or less of a Christian because you know that you know you have the Holy Spirit because you have the Spirit of Christ by the new birth.

Just because every Christian has not received the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance does not mean they have not been baptized with a measure of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only one I have read about that had the Holy Spirit without measure. The apostles were able to do things by the power of the Holy Spirit that few have been able to do since. I knew a preacher at one time that had an infilling of the Holy Spirit and didn’t speak in tongues but he had power and even signs followed his ministry. I don’t believe we should be seeking tongues but only the filling of the Holy Spirit and let Him manifest himself in how He desires. I don’t believe we need to beg and plead or cry because it is a gift. I was saved and filled with the Spirit several years and knew that I was before I was filled one night and found myself speaking in an unknown tongue. The main experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus said the disciples was to receive was power from on high but after receiving, one must stay full in order for the experience to continue with a person.

Also every true Christian has been baptized into Christ and therefore has received the Holy Spirit but being filled is a command to every Christian. It’s really just more of the same.

Finally MJ, just enjoy the relationship you have with the Lord and desire more of His presence and don’t let anyone cause you to doubt what God has done in your life because they say they have experienced something that you haven’t. I knew I was filled with the Spirit long before I ever spoke in tongues and I admit I am more of a classical Pentecostal and still believe that the original Apostles all spoke in tongues when they were filled with the Holy Spirit. I also know that has not always been the case since then. I may elaborate more later, but God bless you in your experience with God.

Blessings to all!

On the topic of the "Second Blessing", Derek Prince presented an interesting explanation in his book "The Holy Spirit in You". John 7:37-39 tells of Jesus promising "rivers of living waters" but ends with: "Up until that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified".

He makes a distinction between Resurrection and Glorification in that Jesus was glorified after his ascension to the right hand of the Father. He suggests a similar pattern for the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer:-

Easter Sunday ==> Pentecost Sunday
The Resurrected Christ ==> The Glorified Christ
The Inbreathed Spirit ==> The Outpoured Spirit

In John 20:22 Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on the disciples telling them to "Receive". I think it is safe to say that the Holy Spirit was dwelling in the disciples at this point. This occurred after his Resurrection and prior to his Ascension.

Later however, in Acts Chapter 1 Jesus told them to *wait* for the coming "Baptism in the Holy Ghost" and that the "Holy Ghost will come upon you". This suggests that the disciples, already having the Inbreathed Spirit, should wait for a second, more intense manifestation of the Holy Ghost.

PassingThru

I really enjoyed this conversation/discussion...

You see a thing that happens in communication with each. We think somebody is saying something, and without questioning we are going to attack/chasen that, to find out that the person wasn't really saying what we thought.

I want to say thanks to everybody that took time to give there thoughts about this topic and for the verses put on here.

Even though I didn't submit any reply yet, I have read you're comments and they encouraged me. Especially some comments of Krispy and Approved, but also of others. It is a joy that different persons from different dominations/backgrounds can talk together and discuss 'hard' topics and after the discussion there hards are bound more together then ever! I hope that that is what happend here :-)

_________________
Wijnand de Ridder

QUOTE Evidence of Genuine Belivers Speaking in Tongues before 1900? (HELP!) Reply

After The Apostles & Before 1900:

1. Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) wrote "The prophetical gift remains with us even to the present time" (Dialogue with Trypho, Volume 1.) In his work called "The Second Apology of Justin," he speaks of the ability of Christians in his day to cast out demons and administer healing.

2. Irenaeus (AD 125-200) In his "Against Heresies," Volume 1, he describes Christians as those who cast out devils, have visions, prophecy, lay hands on the sick, and raise the Dead. He also testified that believers were still speaking with tongues.

3. Tertullian (AD 160-240) In “A Treatise On The Soul,” Tertullian wrote, “For seeing that we acknowledge the spiritual charismata, or gifts, we too have merited the attainment of the prophetic gift.” In his “Against Marcion, Tertullian revealed his acquaintance with speaking with tongues, and viewed the gifts of the Spirit as a sign of Orthodoxy.

4. Origen (AD 185-284) In his work “Agains Celsus,” Origen spoke of miracles being performed. He defends speaking with tongues. He links praying in the Spirit with praying in tongues. Origen was the first early church father to express concern over a diminishing of spiritual gifts in the church. However, he saw this being a result of a lack of holiness and not the will of God.

5. The Monastic Movement (AD 300 - ) Anthnasius wrote about the life of Anthony (the father of Monasticism). He wrote of Anthony as being a man who was filled with the supernatural.

6 (The Middle Ages) A significant Jealousy arose between the church at Rome and the common people. Around AD 1000 the Roman church declared that speaking in tongues among the common people were to be considered evidence of demon possession. However, among the church hierarchy it could be considered evidence of sainthood.

7. The Waldenses (1176 – beyond the 16th century) This group sought to find the biblical pattern for a New Testament church. Divine healings as well as the gifts of the Spirit were part of their ministry

8. Martin Luther – Stanley Frodsham’s book entitled “With Signs Following” quotes a work in German by Souer who described Luther as one who spoke with tongues and was endowed with the gifts of the Spirit. It has also been shown that the Anabaptists of the 16th century had a great interest in the gifts of the Spirit as also did the Morovians.

9. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) This Pentecostal movement began in 1896. During a revival in Cherokee County, North Carolina. It is said that many spoke with tongues during this revival. END OF QUOTE

docseth

You have not given the source of this quotation and I would dispute that it does not show what you claim.

It is wrongly assumed by Pentecostals, that one either believes in tongues PLUS the other gifts or one believes that they ALL ceased and thereby one is called a cessationist and believes that after the New Testament was put together, God communicates with man through them and through them alone.

Thus is not so, there are many believers who believe in the second blessing and continuance of the gifts like prophecy and healing, but not tongues, as they were to `come to an end due to an outside agency` according to the Greek understanding of cease, whereas, prophecy and knowledge would come to the end of being `in part` or rather, when perfection comes, they would no longer be experienced now and again in that understanding of partial, but would now be known in full and continuously after a man is filled with the Spirit. The Greek used for this `cessation` is a different word.

That which is perfect is not the Bible and is not Christ as the word used is to signify a thing not a person. The thing is perfection or holiness and Paul is showing us the results of it - once I saw like a child but now I have become adult or reached the fullness, I see through the mirror clearly.

To get back to the `evidence` you supply, most of the points only show that indeed the writers accepted the continuation of the gifts, but it is being wrongly assumed that they included tongues. Any quotes given are about the other gifts and do not mention tongues.

The so called evidence is not actually quoting anyone on this point, it is only claiming that they said it. I dont know about you but I like to have claims backed by references through honest scholarship and not the manipulation seen here.

The fact is that if babbling continued, it was on the fringes of the church due to lack of certifiable evidence to the contrary, and the greatest theologians missionaries and preachers throughout church history, who have been used greatly, and as KK rightly said, more than anyone here, did not teach tongues and did not even bother to mention much about it, being not part of the established church, because it is a modern thing and part of the downfall of the church which we are witnessing.

krautfrau...

Thank you for posting that. Obviously I do not agree with your conclusions at the end necessarily, but you are spot on when it comes to what Pentecostals assume. It's kind of an "all or nothing" mentality.

I grew up in the Pentecostal circle and I have to say my conclusions are the same as Krispy on this one. Not everyone will speak in Tongues, its just not an evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

What I find in scripture is that the fruit of the Spirit are the only viable litmus test of "Filled with the Spirit" not the gifts. Teaching is a gift of the Spirit and yet we have today many teachers who are also atheist, because they are skilled teachers does this make them "filled"? This applies to all the other gifts.

For me I draw my conclusion from 1 Corinthians 12 and 13 Paul is giving us a list of the gifts in 12 and finally ends 12 with verse 31 "BUT eagerly desire the greater gifts. and now I will show you the most excellent way"(this is where people get tripped up by chapter and verse divisions) because Paul continues in Chapter 13 saying how useless the spiritual gifts are IF they are not movitated by the greater gifts Faith, Hope, and Love.

I remember as a little Pentecostal boy praying and begging the Lord Jesus to baptise me in the Holy Spirit so I could speak in tongues and in reality that was how I was told I knew I was baptised what when this happened. Now I pray from a humble heart Lord fill me with Faith, Hope, and Love.

You see, if we filled with Christ's Love we are filled with His Spirit (THE Spirit of Love) and if we are filled with The Spirit of Love we are Filled with the Father of that Love and thus one with the Father, by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

I don't know how many "spirit-filled" individuals I have seen pass a homeless man or someone in need and they spout the line "I just didn't feel lead to help them" IF Christ is in YOU and the Holy Spirit is guiding you by george you are going to be serving like Christ served, and HE is the Servant of All. The real question I ask myself now is Am I movitivated by Love,not my love but HIS? What does His Love look like lived out?

I have seen far to many individuals among the Pentecostal movement use speaking in tongues as badges of honor for themselves than to Praise the Lord for giving Good gifts. I have been to events where they kept track of attendance, Salvations, water baptisms, and "Holy Spirit" Baptistm i.e. how many people could they get to speak in tongues.

Seems rather silly now looking back on it. If you have the gift of Speaking in Tongues Good! Use it to Glorify the Father! Amen! Enjoy the gift. :) And I'll enjoy the gifts that God has blessed me with (mostly music :)

_________________
Matthew Guldner