Phanetheus, RainMan and others,

Please accept my apology for not directly addressing your posts. I hope to comment, perhaps, tomorrow.

For those who are interested in some of the predestination and foreknowledge views as viewed historically and the way first century believers would have seen this, I would HIGHLY recommend that you check out this message found on Sermonindex. It's called "What the reformers forgot" by Jacob Prasch. Now there is A LOT of content in this message, so the topic isn't tackled right off the bat, but it is touched on.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=18731&commentView=itemComments

Prasch is a Jewish convert to Christianity, fluent in Hebrew, church history, and Jewish history and rabbinical thought.

Usually when sermons are posted for people to listen to on a topic I tend to skip over them, especially if I don't recognize the name. However, I'd really implore the curious to give this a shot.

I'd recommend any of his sermons that are available on this site, as he is probably one of the most, if not the most, interesting historically and Biblically academic speakers I've ever heard. SOLID exegesis. And you can go look up everything he says. Challenge yourself and give this a listen.

Thanks EverestoSama,

I sure will.

_________________
Fifi

Snuffy,

Personally, seldom from here is posted anything from other sites or other's ideas except scripture itself. If it is done, the URL is preferred rather than going to the trouble of copying and/or cut-n-paste. Anyway, it's a habit started in HS and ingrained in college to site sources when writing and not defrauding the reader through plagarism. As stated several times previously on other posts, i have a bad tendency to become wordy when writing, and unless someone is willing and available to edit (like when i am under contract for a book . . . pseudononymously so far. . . but i'm thinking of changing my pen-name to either: Ben Amin Berythel--->(B. A. B.el . . . you can laugh now,) , Isaac Jaaskovich, or Doan Telcher . . . any suggestions are appreciated.) Having to read book after book after book in school, attempting three degrees at once and never finishing one due to a fatal body mangling car crash, among other things, the Lord clearly told me, among other things "knowledge puffeth up" in not so few words, i.e. Eccl. 1.18, 12.12.
(Per the Lord's direction, i was completely offline from 2001 until he gave me a computer and an Inet connection again in 2010. Bookwise, i've become virtually a one book man yet love to listen to sermon after sermon while working.)

(Thanks again Grant.)

Apolologies if i write too much or try and prompt other to do so. i read quick and most often type quick, usually without edit.
( Could i suggest you go through Evelyn Woodhed's Sped Reding Course? )

Sometimes response is individual and at times not.

My fault is failure to understand and recognize other's time limits and attention spans. Currently, if i loose inteerest, often reading/writing is quit with until interest sparks up again. . . that is, if the Lord directs not otherwise.

Alive-to-God, it's doubted anyone will feel sleighted if there is no personal response. There are alot of thoughts flying through this thread and unless one remembers who wrote what. ( I'm good at this with text but person to person face to face, i often misplace and mix names because of similar attitudes observed through through human interaction. ) Postwise on a thread, reading through, new ideas and various responses are drwn through the mingling and co-mingling of various posts. Go figure.
============================================================

W0rks deadlines are hounding again again, and unless God wants me to read/write, it's doubtful a way will be made to make impression in the seasands of SI until Shabbat. D.V., He allows me to continue uninterrupted with this thread.

Thing is, right now a mountain of scripture is being meditated on and studied through. It seems like nearly everything looked to in scriptures says "predestination/free-will" in that order.


Beginning in Thee Faith (30+ y-eraz ago), i was taught that prophecy was "forth-telling" and that over 1/4th of the Bible was prophecy.

When God set my life into walking in the 'office' of, i found out differently. my (Messianic) Rabbi clarified that this is hardly the limit of prophecy. Over one fourth of the time it is just that through discerning spirits, a word of knowledge, or a word of wisdom; however, it's purpose is to encourage, exhort, and admonish. With this in mind, to whom anybody God reveals His righteousness towards proclamation is a talking walking prophet, according to their trust in the Messiah. The whole of the scripture is a prophetic revelation of Jesus Christ. The realization came that whether it was Moses, Joshua, Paul or whoever wrote God-breathed scripture or revealed God's righteousness --(in and of and from and onto our Saviour Jesus Christ)-- to people is fulling the role of prophet to a greater or lesser extent.

It is only less than 1 fifth of the Bible, through the Koine' Greek we think of prophecy as merely "forth-telling." (To limit ourselves to less than 1 fifth of the Bible is to see less than 1 fifth of God's revelation of Himself (in righteousness).

Paul told to pray that you may prophecy, yet this was hardly ever even considered here. This is something i never wanted and fought God's call with giftings and lost. He ended up having to deal with me with a heavy hand (which from seeing all the Bible examples of killed dead prophets was something that was shunned). Will the pot strive against the potter? Folks, it's a losing battle, and to be revealed your own final demise . . . well, if nothing else does it, that will definitely put the fear of God in you and obliterate the fear of death, much less anything else.

(Still, through it all, complete dependence and an ever abounding trust of God in Christ has come through this, even though pride still rears it's ugly head from time to time. i WOULD NEVER EVER GO BACK TO WHAT LIFE WAS LIKE BEFORE NOW. Today, God is so real in this life that the physical though more vibrant is a faded reality compared to the eternal life he has freely given. )

How's that for
H.onest
O.pen and
T.ransparent ?


When Moses and the children of Isreal sojourned the wilderness, look at all the times Moses spent time alone with God. They get out there and God tells Moses to come up on the mountain and just BE with Him for 40 days. . . then He gets back to the tribes and sets up his tent outside the camp, and it becomes known as "the tent of meeting."

Adam walked with God in the cool of the day.

Many others could be related regarding their relationship with our God, just spending time completely alone with Him.


Today, in one of Greg's post's and sojourner7's response you see my own emphasis in everything written though not always so obviously stated:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35650&forum=34&1


Regarding this or any other thread that response is found from here, one thing alone often surfaces heavily from this heart straight from His Spirit, ". . .yeah, all this talk about surrounding things greggy bouy, but what of relationship? Me with them (all participants in this forum). . . me with you. . . write this: ______________."

We can easily get sidetracked.
The question is: are you keeping a constantly open ear to His direction(s) or will you turn your back?

This whole thread has gripped me like not another, and really it's not the thread at all except it's prompting effect, especially when Romans 8 was turned to this morning.

Here i am sorting through Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and related scriptures and God says, " From beginning to end, read Romans." Chapter 8, vv. 20 - 29 set this body trembling, and by the time it was finished i was no use for much of anything here below. Only worship, only relationship. . .that was all that happened for how long i don't care. Recomposed, the computer was returned to and reading/typing ensued, then it was off to work (but i was called aside by Him and we talked for how long i don't care.

Yesterday was a very very good day.




We think the problem is self or will or what we have or know and it's not.

It's what we don't do. . . and what we don't do is JUST BE WITH HIM.

Without communing with God there really isn't anything worth thinking, saying, or doing.

God has made a way through the cross of His one and only dearly loved Son who pleases Him extremely. The awesomeness of this relationship is beyond description and prayers are that all will heed and consider this 1 thing 1st and formost.

Without this one thing, the idea of continuing True Revival is a misgnomer.

Learn to just be with God and He'll take care of the rest.




Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow.
Mt. 6.19-34a


Beholding Jesus,

gregg

edited: Hebraisms converted to English to avoid confusion

[Edited to remove 80% of the typo's]
Your last post brother phaney is a reminder to us all. Paul never took pride in his exegesis as wonderful as it was. He never took pride in linguistics though i suspect he was a most fluent speaker of Greek, Hebrew etc. The one thing he took pride in was how he suffered for the one he loved (God) in the hope of the glory to come.


***ADMONITION to SI***
is the word not suppose to dwell in us richly as we admonish one another? If so if we are ready to admonish others so readily are we not ourselves open to rebuke? if not how are we edified as a body.

To often i have read the puffed up tones of knowledge of the logos on certain threads. For me i can see the same excesses of the early church. We are beginning to add 1 + 1 and are ending up with 785 and losing sight of the very demonstration of humility and unconventional wisdom demonstrated by the cross.

Personally i have no problem with the way some people conduct themselves as i see it as a manifestation of their nature either being fleshly or spiritual and as this is the internet i cant judge people who i don't intimately know but i am able form my humble location discern the kind of spirit behind some of these posts. So in love i would ask us all to ask the lord to "SEARCH ME AND KNOW ME AND SEE IF I HAVE ANY WICKED WAYS"

our character can be a better witness than our theology. Puffed up knowledge is usually contentious and never edifying.

Remember in Ezekiel 34 where the lord says he will judge between sheep and how the fat sheep where barging the weaker sheep and preventing them form drinking? Remember how it says how the stronger sheep where muddying the water after use making it extremely difficult for those following to drink pure water? let us not muddy the water for those who have come here searching.

It is becoming increasing difficult to read though posts as they can be long winded and hermeneutically poor(personal opinion) and as some one said at times can be 'drivel' but i would not use such harsh terms seeing as it is better to encourage each other than to snipe and beat up on each other. We must do all things in love. We are a people of different maturity and giftings and at all times we must always remember to exhibit the same 'grace' Christ has sown us to the world and to ourselves as a community.

Where is boasting? what reason do I OR ANYONE here have to boast other than that Christ was crucified and rose again after three days , paying the price for true liberty (free will) and i choose believe (a personal responsibility and truth that runs parallel to the very fact my believe may indeed be a gift).

This threads topic is a topic many feel impassioned about. Some have been saved for decades, some saved for a few years or even weeks. If someone who has been saved for a few years is seeking answers must we forbid them because we have been around for decades and the topic is of no interest to us? Some swing to extremes of Calvinism, arminianism, fatalism, determinism and just about any ism you can throw in. As we try to make sense of what we cannot let us not in rebellion reject the expressed council of Gods word.

I apologize if I have offended any one by my comments requesting fewer words.
I just feel dry when I red longer posts filled with dictionary definitions, and word derivatives yet I want to read them to know what is in there.
I understand it’s necessity, and especially the efforts put into it.
Just wanted to say I appreciate your willingness to discuss this and teach the rest of us what the Lord has been teaching you.

_________________
Fifi

EverestoSama,


I truly appreciate your referencing this preacher Jacob Prasch.
It is an eye opener.

I have also been reading some books by David Bercot such as. “Will the Theologians Please Sit Down“, “Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up” and “The Kingdom That Turned The World Up-Side Down“. All by the same author. I really appreciate these books because they point out the fact the the Reformation was not a turn to biblical Christianity as the 1st century Christians both understood and lived it.

_________________
Fifi

To RainMan,

Maybe this needs to be discussed further in a more general way by all of us, but your equation of 'liberty' and 'free will' is neither fair to the context of liberty (eg Gal 5:1 which is with regard to the law), nor to the concept of free will which is not called 'free will' in the KJV (ever). A man and his will are not separate things.

To everyone: in the following verse, who is 'chosen'?

Luke 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.

In other words, do you believe that only the people who allowed themselves to be compelled, were chosen, and the ones that refused to be compelled were not chosen?

Did their refusal play some part in their not arriving at the 'house'?

Or, was everyone the servant spoke to, successfully 'compelled'?



Finally, I wish to confirm that I know I'm not doing formal 'exegesis' on any scripture, anytime, when I post. I've not been formally or informally trained to do so. Unlike UntoBabes, I very much enjoy the single word studies which accompany these discussions, as they are always useful for future study. I am not particularly interested in theological constructs. The further they drift from what scripture actually says, the less convinced I am of their validity. No offence intended. Even some very straightforward offerings which seem to be based clearly on scripture, at times do not read spiritually, and therefore are equally unconvincing, imho.

Luke 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.



Quote,



To everyone: in the following verse, who is 'chosen'?


Answer:

This parable is the same in Mattew 22:1-14

The reason I believe that is: The only banquet the Father has is the a banquet for the Son or “The Marriage Supper of the Lamb“..

The parable in Matthew sheds some more light on the ones invited.
In verse 12 we see that one did not have the wedding garment, but notice he did not refuse to come.

In verse 14 it says: “ Many are called but few are chosen.”

In he light of that we can figure out the answers to the questions you gave.

* The answer is : Some of the ones that were compelled to come are chosen and some are not.

* The ones that refused to be compelled are definitely not chosen.


Quote,



Did their refusal play some part in their not arriving at the 'house'?



Answer:

Absolutely yes, their refusal was evidence that they were not chosen.

Here we see the for-knowledge of God. For the ones that were chosen from eternity past are the same who will believe the gospel and continue to believe to the end, and produce fruits unto salvation that when judgment comes they will not be found with spoiled garments

_________________
Fifi

[edited for clarity]
I would have to agree with UntoBabes.

But if i can add to that answer i would say that in interpreting a parable or indeed a prophetic vision one has to take care we do not get too intelligent and go beyond the intended meaning as allegory isnt always straightforward to discern without 'adding' a bit of our own ideology to the intended meaning.

Jesus also talks about people being invited ('compelled') to come to the wedding (covenant relationship with God) and a man was found that didn't have on the right attire. Well if i am interpreting the parable correctly Jesus goes on to request the gentleman was cast into the fire for not being dressed adequately. He was compelled, he accepted and showed up but he was not of Christ and so was rejected by him. The man to me is an analogue of a false conversion. Both in a true conversion and a false conversion both are 'compelled' and seeming choose Christ but the difference is one is marked and separated for righteousness and the other is not. A man can try any religion but a true conversion is always initiated by the holy spirit.

Remember not everyone that says lord , lord will enter into his kingdom. Many believe in Jesus and know him but salvation requires we are known of him

Alive-to-God
When i was inferring liberty i was doing so from romans 8 and not galatians 5 paul is talking about bondage in two different context. Romans 8 talks about bondage to sin galatians 5 talks about bondange to the torah they are separate context and i didnt mention galatians 5. I was simply casting my two cents on my overview of romans 8 at the request of brother phaney.


untobabes

this quote from a preaching by spurgeon is kinda close to what i personally believe.

"Let your faith and your imagination work together to portray the unutterable glories of Immanuel, God with us, as he sits at the right hand of the Father. Such and so bright shall our glories be in the day of the redemption of the body. We shall behold his glory, we shall be with him where he is, and we shall be ourselves glorious in his glory. Is he exalted? you also shall be lifted up. Is he a King? you shall not be uncrowned. Is he a victor? you also shall bear a palm. Is he full of joy and rejoicing? so also shall your soul be filled to the brim with delights. Where he is every saint shall be ere long.
Thus much upon the sacred end of predestination.
II. Now, observe that PREDESTINATION IS THE IMPELLING FORCE TOWARDS THIS CONFORMITY. This truth divides itself thus: it is the will of God that conforms us to Christ's image rather than our own will. It is our will now, but it was God's will when it was not our will, and it only became according to our will when we were converted, because God's grace had made us willing in the day of its power. We cannot be made like Christ unwillingly; a consenting will is essential to the likeness of Christ; unwilling obedience would be disobedience. Naturally we never will towards good without God, but God works in us to will and to do. "



Parables Jesus and predestination
Parables often illustrate a central theme. Going beyond the central theme of message of a parable and picking up on details to illustrate a point can be dangerous. We can infer a few things about Jesus teaching on predestination.
Sheep and shepherd analogue

1. The father 'gives' his son the sheep based on his foreknowledge and no one can take them from the son.

2. Only his sheep truly hear his voice of his call. We can infer from the analogue of the wheat and the tares that goats may also be present his flock and hence his church. Beloved what if both goats and sheep did an exegesis what conclusion would you trust?



for those inclined to know

proginōskō to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

prognōsis
From proginōskō ; forethought: - foreknowledge.



Alive to god
if there is one bit of encouragement i would give to a believer it would be this

1 John 2:26-30 (King James Version)

26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If you have the holy spirit, let him teach you. If there are mysteries we have to be able to accept some things are mysteries otherwise we begin yielding to carnal wisdom and not spirit inspired revelations of God word.

The only revelation that counts are those which we live out existentially as we are conformed to the likeness of Christ.

28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.