Debate...
7378 רִיב [riyb, ruwb /reeb/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 2159; GK 8189; 67 occurrences; AV translates as “plead” 27 times, “strive” 13 times, “contend” 12 times, “chide” six times, “debate” twice, and translated miscellaneously seven times. 1 to strive, contend. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to strive. 1a1a physically. 1a1b with words. 1a2 to conduct a case or suit (legal), sue. 1a3 to make complaint. 1a4 to quarrel. 1b (Hiphil) to contend against.


Debate is translated 'plead' 27 times and to 'contend' 12 times.

Paul did much 'pleading', 'contending' and persuading when it came to doctrinal disputes as well as exhorting Timothy to do the same.

I was part of a bible study men's group last winter in which we had a number of guests attend at times. Some of them would show up regularly and 'debate' what was being taught at our church. Some members voiced frustration that these men that were 'guests' were taking up most of the time with repeated arguments and I was encouraged to stop their 'debating'.

My reply was that it was not a bad thing but rather to the good. The guests were welcome and so were their debates. It sharpened everyone there and it was kept profitable. And in the end that is exactly what it was, profitable. We were blessed with their company and glad that they cared enough about doctrine to join us and even 'debate'.

If any can read Acts and show me from Paul's work that contending and pleading for sound doctrine is always wrong, as a number have posted on this thread, then I would be interested to see that.

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Christopher Joel Dandrow

We are called to be FULL of GRACE AND TRUTH. Full of both at all times. Not 60/40. That's impossible (being full of both) if truth must be sacrificed to be gracious on the doctrines of the gospel, the most important one.
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Amen Chris!

Jesus Christ is "the truth". He has said "I am the way, THE TRUTH, and the life."

The Word of God also says that "God is love".

The enemy has led many people in the church to believe that if you speak the truth on subjects like homosexuality that you are intolerant. The "hate crimes" legislation that is being rammed down American's throats by our president and liberal congress and senate will one day make it illegal to preach the true gospel.

There is also the opposite extreme where certain groups are carrying signs to rallies and even to funerals that say: "God hates homosexuals".

If we would walk in the perfect balance of mercy and truth, then we would not be caught up in either one of these extremes.

I personally do not like using the word "debate" as something that christians should be doing to try to hash out their differences. Most debates have a winner and a looser, and the one that can lay out the best presentation, and have the best argument is declared to be the winner.

Christians are not called to debate the truth. We are called to proclaim the truth, to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, to live a life that bears witness to the truth that we preach.

The Holy Spirit has been given to the Church to lead us into all of the truth. None of us have all the answers, and we can certainly learn from others. There are baby Christians, young men, and spiritual fathers that are at different levels of spiritual development. A babe would not be able to eat and digest a T bone steak, neither would a spiritual man be satisfied with just the milk of the Word.

We can certainly learn from our brothers and sisters that are different from us if we are teachable. It is not a matter of debate, but it is loving the truth and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us and lead us into all truth.

Mike

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Mike

This pastor should have definetly spoke the truth in this situation, but there should be no debate about it. This 4th year seminary student was definetly in error, and only one who agrees with the doctrine of unsanctified mercy, greasy grace or a bleeding heart liberal would agree with his statement.

The problem with most seeker friendly churches is that they are much more worried about hurting people's feelings than grieving the Holy Spirit and offending God.

I am only disagreeing with the terminology that you are using. You call it debate, and I refer to it as speaking the truth.

Mike

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Mike

Then you agree with what I've been saying but disagree with the term?

You're saying the pastor should have contradicted the student and contended for the truth. He should have disputed the teaching of the student and responded with the truth. He should have opposed the teaching that was in error for the sake of Christ, the truth and the church, especially the younger believers.

But he shouldn't debate.

I don't understand what you're saying.

Given that 'Debate' is translated in the bible as 'contend for' and 'plead with', how does one do this and not debate?

To debate is to contend for the truth and plead with those in error. Why is that bad?

It is easy to see that when the bible condemns 'debate' it isn't the defending of sound doctrine or the correcting of 'vampire church' error, but rather the stirring up of controversies to be divisive.

Is this wisdom not clearly seen?

Or do all that have posted 'anti debate' posts believe, as Mike, that the truth should be contended for against error, but only don't call it 'debate'?


PS: It wasn't a seeker sens. church. When the head pastor heard about it he was appalled.

I wanted to add this passage as well...

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Hi Ceedub,

About this,

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Christopher Joel Dandrow

Hi again everyone.


ceedub,

about this,


"For those that oppose debate over doctrine, can I ask what you would do in such a case?"



I think that is a fair question to ask.


I wonder if I could share something from my own personal experience?

Here in the city there are at least two groups that I have encountered that preach out in public. [b]As far as I can tell[/b], they are telling others that you must be a physical descendant of Israel in order to be saved. I could be wrong about the particulars of that.

One of the groups seems to be more moderate while the other seems almost militant, by the way they dress. I've confronted both.


The last time I spoke to them it was the group that seems more militant. The man speaking was loudly telling those standing by that they needed to obey the commands of Christ. As I passed by I looked at him and said that the Lord Jesus commanded us to love our enemies.

As he began to address what I had said to the crowd, saying things that would appearantly justify not loving some people, he called me a devil.


When I protested to those standing by that it was not fair to make a statement like that about someone you know nothing about, one of them asked me what "devil" means. I told him at first, 'liar', and then afterwards I told him it means 'slanderer'. Which I said to the rest also.

I then exhorted the people standing nearby to pay close attention to [i]what it was[/i] they were hearing and then walked into a building nearby.


When I came out and the people were still there, I took the opportunity to walk over to some of those that looked as though they were in the group and to admonish them that the Lord Jesus told us to pray for those who mistreat us. I said this to several of them.



Tonight as I was walking by that area on the other side of the street, I noticed that the same group was there. Several of them were in a circle and as I continued on down the street they began to shout all in unison. I could not make out anything they were saying except I heard the word Israel.

As I looked over to the other side of the street I noticed a van which I took to be theirs. It had a phrase printed on the side in qoutes that read:


"Home of the truth"





How do we always respond? I do not know.

I think that the Lord Jesus used the many opportunities that His adversaries presented Him in their seeking to ensare and to defeat Him, to speak the truth to those who were listening.




[i]edited to correct an error in spelling[/i]

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Christopher Joel Dandrow