| Poster | Thread | davidt
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Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Murrcolr,
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"Know this is new new for some of you.
In saying new he was not saying that he has a new theology "msog". Contextually he was speaking to people who were largely of the post trib crowd since most of the Church is.
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The tribualtion happens through us not to us.
Once again I want to state (First I know what he teaches on this issue and am acquainted somewhat thoroughly on it) He was not saying we will not go through tribulation. He just did not in this specific instance mention it. The tribulation that he was talking about that would not come upon us was the tribulation direct from God, namely the plagues and bowls of wrath and so forth. So he was only saying that we will not receive that "specific" tribulation. He was not saying we would not receive tribulation at all just not that kind. So there is a distinction between the 2 kinds of tribulation. One from God and the other from the anti Christ.
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When I heard "The tribualtion is against the anti christ" I about fell off my chair
Again, there is a certain type of tribulation that is against the anti Christ. The other kind is against the Church. For example here is an Old Testament type. Pharaoh received tribulation from God by Moses and the cry of Israel like the plagues. Then again there is the other type of tribulation that was against Israel like the hard servitude. So in the same way God is going to bring plagues on the earth like it says in Revelation on the earth and this is directed at the anti Christ but also the world or egypt. Those plagues that are sent in Revelation are not for the Church God would not pour His wrath on the Church. And the reason that God is attacking is because it is the beginning of the war against anti Christ and the beginning of the second coming or the day of the Lord. As John said, "I was taken in the spirit on the Lord's day". The "Lord's day means the day of the Lord which is often spoken of. So from the start of the tribulation of God's wrath this is when the day of the Lord begins and culminates in finality at the second coming of Jesus on a white horse.
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"The major storyline of the book of revelation is the destruction of the antichrist through the praying church"
This is the major storyline. Much of the Church is afraid of the tribulation and day of the Lord. However the Church will be spiritually powerful though under affliction as has been demonstrated before like in the book of Acts. When Moses came to Egypt and the plagues broke out on Egypt and the Israelites were persecuted this was not a bad day but a good day. The Israelites were being tested but it was also said that God had heard their cry and they need not fear the plagues for they were not for them as long as the had lambs blood over their door post.
It is about the destruction of Anti Christ and the Devil and it culminates at Armageddon. I remember when I held to pre trib theology and it was not until I understood post trib that this type of Egypt and Moses became so very clear and fitting.
Also, please note you will see if you read the book of Revelation that the judgments of God are poured out in connection with the prayers of the saints even the dead saints for remember the martyrs under the altar crying how long? It is this prayer of Maranatha and anathema to all who love not Jesus and hasten the day of the Lord and so forth that is prayed and answered like the cry of Israel unto their deliverance. Many do not want the Lord to come soon but those are mainly those who are not suffering from injustice. We are to be fasting because the bridegroom is gone and longing from His appearing and that will be answered for He is a good judge and will answer those who cry out to Him day and night speedily and that verse is then followed up by an exhortation from Jesus saying, "when the Son of man returns will He find faith on the earth?". Jesus wasnt saying there would be no faith on the earth in the last days He was challenging us to have faith and pray believing that they will be answered for His second coming. We have lost our desire for Jesus to return remember how the disciples felt when Jesus left them ascending in the same way we should long for His return.
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I think the meaning behind this is that Christians should pray to become the executioner of God's wrath. Know that the root of that mind set is MSOG or what we know it as today Joel's Army.
I understand the connection you are making here. However though there is somewhat of a similarity there is an essential difference. He is not saying that we will militarily beat Satan but that we will pray and they will be answered and God will send plagues and so forth from heaven. So you cannot and do not have a basis for saying that this is msog. Remember once again that msog has been openly rejected by Mike on ihop.org.
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Asking questions does not make me a bad person, nor does it mean I have a "religous spirit". This forum is open to all types and there are many people here with many different beliefs and experiences. I don't know what you believe and if it seems like I was getting on your case I am not. I desire only to look at scripture and understand the truth of scripture an walk in it.
I understand what you are saying and apologize if I was unnecessarily sharp. I was not only responding to you but in general to those who have pre produced prejudices against certain ministries and so erroneously find error quickly just because they feel uncomfortable if you see what I am saying.
I do largely believe that same that is taught in this eschatology. But once again I think you are misinterpreting what is being said here. I understand why would think that namely because he did not fully explain himself on the issue but that is because he was only talking about one thing and did not mean the word "tribulation" to mean both types but only one and I can tell you that I know this from study. I respect your respect and reverence for scripture and encourage that.
So do you see what I am trying to say. I think I understand what you are saying. But just think you have misunderstood some things though somewhat justly. Are things cleared up? |
|  2009/1/13 17:49 | Profile | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | It is interesting that some of the commitments here are very biblical and should be practiced by all Christians:
The Sacred Charge: 7 Commitments of a Forerunner
Friends of the Bridegroom preparing the way of Jesus' Second Coming
As part of the Sacred Charge you commit to:
Pray Daily: Spending 2 hours in prayer and Word (Book of Revelation once a week for 3 years)
Fast Weekly: Setting your heart to fast 2 days a week as a lifestyle *
Speak Boldly: Standing as a faithful witness in allegiance to Jesus' heart for the Church, Israel and the nations
Do Justly: Doing works of justice focusing on the fatherless and oppressed
Give Extravagantly: Giving to the prayer movement (beyond our tithe)
Live Holy: Walking out the Sermon on the Mount and keeping the Purity Covenant
Lead Diligently: Leading weekly prayer meetings and Bible studies (focused on training forerunners)
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2009/1/13 18:01 | Profile | iansmith
Member
Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL
| | Re: | | I hate to be a wet blanket, and this may have already been said, but Mike Bickle and IHOP have all the signs of being a cult in one of the worst senses... that is not to say that those who attend are not Christians, but I think many people have been deceived (and will be deceived) by this man and his ministry.
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Ian Smith
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| | 2009/1/13 18:16 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Greg,
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It is interesting that some of the commitments here are very biblical and should be practiced by all Christians:
Yeah. |
| | 2009/1/13 18:25 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Ian,
Quote:
Mike Bickel and IHOP have all the signs of being a cult in one of the worst senses... I think many people have been deceived (and will be deceived) by this man and his ministry.
Can you expound upon your statement and explain? I think if you make such an accusation that you should give facts. I don't think it is helpful to say things like this without giving proofs. I am sure you have reasons or at least hope so since you are making such authoritative claims on quite important matters. I would like to hear them I believe it would be beneficial. |
| | 2009/1/13 18:39 | Profile | iansmith
Member
Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL
| | Re: | | There's a thing called google, all the information is there if you want to look for it.
First of all, Mike Bickle has been associated with many false prophesies (as part of the Kansas City Prophets and the Prophetic Movement) and has recently been pushing a lot of new age doctrine and eastern mysticism in his teachings. There is a strong emphasis on contemplative prayer and meditation.
Like many cults in their early stages, many members are manipulated through fear, guilt, shame or expectations of leaders to sacrifice their time, money and plans in order to build up the church -there are plenty of stories online of young people that have been abused in these ways in the IHOP ministry.
There is an over emphasis on experience within the IHOP ministry, and they are associated with some very heretical movements around the nation (including a recent revival in Florida and all of the dog barking up in Toronto).
Simply put, avoid Mike, avoid the pancakes (ha ha) and avoid Kansas City.
_________________
Ian Smith
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| | 2009/1/13 19:07 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Ian,
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There's a thing called google, all the information is there if you want to look for it.
I know about google and have studied much on the topic. Even in that I am open to more comments that I have possibly not considered.
I was mainly responding to you. In that you made an accusation but did not give any reasons, nor did you provide proofs, and I feel it is your responsibility to do so in such a case.
And, I was wanting you to share your thoughts so that I could respond.
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associated with many false prophesies
Again you should provide reasons/ proofs/ evidences for you claims. What false prophecies are you talking about?
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pushing a lot of new age doctrine and eastern mysticism in his teachings. There is a strong emphasis on contemplative prayer and meditation.
What is the proof that there is new age doctrine or eastern mysticism? There is nothing wrong with contemplative and meditative prayer. We are supposed to contemplate God and meditate on Him and His word.
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manipulated through fear, guilt, shame or expectations of leaders to sacrifice their time, money and plans in order to build up the church
There is nothing wrong with persuading someone in light of the fear of God. The fear of God does bring shame and guilt and so forth yet conviction is a good thing.
I would also like to note that this ministry does not mainly focus on pressuring people to such things but much grace is emphasized and this ministry has even often been accused of emphasizing it too much.
This is what evangelist do to bring people to God. Or brethren do in exhorting each other. So this in and of itself is not bad.
If it were based on a false premise or a false motive then this would be called manipulation.
Again you fail to provide proofs but only offer an accusation.
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there are plenty of stories online of young people that have been abused in these ways in the IHOP ministry.
I have not really come upon many. Even so those that there are can you know whether these people are not compromised and so give a compromised testimony as many do after leaving a Church. I remember reading of Hudson Taylor and how many missionaries were upset with him that he encouraged them to the mission field. There can even be extreme and fault but this does not totally discredit a fellowship.
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There is an over emphasis on experience within the IHOP ministry,
How so? I would say there is too little emphasis on experience in the Church. Christianity is an experience if you don't have an experience you don't have Christianity. Paul prayed that we would have a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him. Did Tozer and Ravenhill focus too much on experience? This is eternal life that you may know "experience/ spiritual revelation" Him.
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and they are associated with some very heretical movements around the nation (including a recent revival in Florida and all of the dog barking up in Toronto).
There is a difference between association and imitation. David Ravenhill is associated with many of these ministries and so is Paul. You can be associated with a ministry and be far different from it.
As for the Florida thing I noted earlier that it was not emphatically effectual in the IHOP community nor was it claimed to be a lofty end time revival ect ect. Other then some emotional hype and exciting hoopla you would have to point out some things that are heretical essentially in it and even in that show that IHOP agrees with it. Men like Andrew Strom believe in Azusa Street Wigglesworth and many other types and many of them had pretty strong errors. King David had errors, Solomon did, Peter at times did, and so on.
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and all of the dog barking up in Toronto).
Bickle said that He believed that God was working in Toronto but that there was also a mix and some really bad stuff in it too. So in that I am confident that he rejects dog barking and other things like that.
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avoid the pancakes (ha ha)
I think in light of what you are saying this statement does not carry a spirit of brokeness and humility. When you rebuke, condemn, damn, accuse someone or something you have to do it with lowliness and meekness and not a mocking spirit. Even if these were your enemies and you laughed at their calamity you would be judged for that.
I believe it is a bit childish to make such remarks as "pancakes". What if a ministry in the west had certain initials that in the east stood for a pancake store would that be funny? Not really because everything doesnt revolve around prominent franchises.
So, in conclusion this is one of the reason I wanted you to respond. I thought that possibly as usual you would have these certain reasons that are far from valid and under some scrutiny show to be silly and erroneous. I can say that there are some hard things to deal with but I am persuaded that you have not provided any actual factual basis's or meaningful reason for your accusatory case. I think the burden of proof still stands on your shoulders since you have said such things as I feel I have answered your criticism clearly and soundly. |
| | 2009/1/13 19:42 | Profile | iansmith
Member
Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL
| | Re: | | My hope was to make a quick post to warn people about this ministry, not go into a deep conversation about their theology or practices. I am a graduate student studying missiology, I have a heavy reading and writing load as it is and don't have much time to spend on topics not directly related to my studies.
As someone who has been involved in an abusive church and as someone studying missiology, with experience in missions and in missions mobilization I believe that I have enough experience and knowledge to spot a dubious ministry.
As for the 'Prophetic Movement' and the 'Kansas City Prophets,' there is more than enough documentation on the internet to turn up a few warning signs. (Also do some searches on Bob Jones and Paul Cain).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic-Prophetic_Movement
Contemplative prayer is also a big warning sign to me because it is all tied up with a surge of new-age, eastern mysticism and neo-Catholicism which is sweeping into Pentecostalism and seeping into Evangelicalism. Some other words to watch out for are 'Spiritual Formation,' and 'Emergent.'
There are lots of great resources for discerning the problems with people like Eugene Peterson, Rob Bell, Brian McLaren etc.
As far as your comments regarding fear or guilt as a legitimate reason for people to get involved in missions -I would say that you are completely wrong. Take a course called Perspectives (http://www.perspectives.org) and get a clear, concise and biblical understanding of Missions in 15 weeks.
I would also recommend that you read a book called 'Churches that Abuse' by Ronald Enroth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_that_Abuse
Here is the PDF:
http://www.reveal.org/development/Churches_that_Abuse.pdf
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When you rebuke, condemn, damn, accuse someone or something you have to do it with lowliness and meekness and not a mocking spirit.
Lighten up, watch this: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/religionsaves/humor
_________________
Ian Smith
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| | 2009/1/13 20:49 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Ian,
Quote:
My hope was to make a quick post to warn people about this ministry, not go into a deep conversation about their theology or practices.
My hope was 2 fold. First, I don't think you should make lofty statements without giving reasons. Second, to correct you in your common misgivings especially since these things are written in an open forum.
If you don't have time to post that is fine but I would say don't make such posts without expecting to have to at least give some backing behind your post especially in this type of case.
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As someone who has been involved in an abusive church and as someone studying missiology, with experience in missions and in missions mobilization I believe that I have enough experience and knowledge to spot a dubious ministry.
I also have gone to school and studied thoroughly and ministered to many places missionally and I also believe I know what I am talking about especially since I have spent more time in actuality observing things first hand.
Warning signs? I am sure there are some things wrong and even some pretty serious mistakes. However there would have to be essential problems that are continued upon in order to discredit a ministry. And I have studied those things which you are referencing.
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Contemplative prayer is also a big warning sign to me because it is all tied up with a surge of new-age, eastern mysticism and neo-Catholicism which is sweeping into Pentecostalism and seeping into Evangelicalism. Some other words to watch out for are 'Spiritual Formation,' and 'Emergent.'
There is nothing wrong with contemplative prayer in and of itself in a biblical context. I understand that there is a lot of error generally but you cannot generalize.
As for the emergent movement one of the main things that IHOP denounces is the false emergent movement. So as you should see you have erred in grouping IHOP into this mess.
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There are lots of great resources for discerning the problems with people like Eugene Peterson, Rob Bell, Brian McLaren etc.
I dont see how any of this ties in with IHOP.
Also, I don't know this for sure but I think Mars Hill is tied in with Rob Bell which you later refer to. I have been to Mars Hill and liked it except for it's reformed emphasis, but I thought I have heard something that Mark is a part with Rob.
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As far as your comments regarding fear or guilt as a legitimate reason for people to get involved in missions -I would say that you are completely wrong. Take a course called Perspectives (http://www.perspectives.org) and get a clear, concise and biblical understanding of Missions in 15 weeks
Fear and guilt is a legitimate motivation for ministry it is biblical. Paul said woe is me if I preach not the Gospel. Ezekiel was told he would be guilty of the judgment of men he did not preach to. There is also the parable of the talents. If you do not believe that fear and conviction is a valid motivation for obedience then you adhere to a liberal theology. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and to fear God is to depart from sin. The list goes on... I am not saying that that is the only motivation but I also said that IHOP as you claimed does not primarily place conviction and responsibility on people for ministry.
I have a sound biblical view of ministry and have also read theological books on the matter it is not like it is some deep complex topic.
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I would also recommend that you read a book called 'Churches that Abuse' by Ronald Enroth.
I also understand about abusive Churches. First from experience but also the denomination I was a part of often preached against Lording it over the flock and fleecing them and also about pentecostal emotional extremes and so forth. There is a difference from guilt, conviction, rebuke, chastening, discipline, and abuse, manipulation and so forth.
You are telling me to lighten up and you are writing posts about how this ministry is from the devil. I would lighten up if this were a light matter. And I really am not being very heavy I was just bringing some light instruction. You might call this humor but I was not sure if it was mockery especially in light of the fact that you condemn this ministry. Even if it were humor I don't see its place its place in context to your defamatory remarks. You cant call out someones ministry and then humor them.
Concluding, you cant just read books and go to a college and think you can come to great truth that way. The vast majority of the professed Church lay ministers have studied much at seminaries and such and have only come to deception. God has to teach you spiritually as well. I went to a bible college for years and studied 10 hours a day or more even during breaks and was not able to come to complete truth on many matters until the Lord broke through. There is a major spiritual war and it must be fought spiritually not merely taught seminarily. Also you must have apostolic obedience you cant just be comfortable in your denomination and follow you pastors like Messiahs you actions dictate your doctrine. Many heresies come from the flesh and until you are free from it you will not have right doctrine and especially not heart doctrine. It seems also probable to me that you have come to your conclusion off of cult website. I believe this method can be very helpful but is also a very shallow attempt. Unless you have been here met the people encountered the Lord have prophetic insight and so forth then you ought to watch what you say. Even doing missions does not make you great. Missions is merely crossing a governmental border and mixing into a different culture. It is not much different then preaching in the US where over 90% of people are not Christian. So, all I am saying is I think you dont know really what you are talking about until you have certain credentials to say so and I also believe many of your arguments have fallen apart and if you do have some essential proof that can discredit the ministry you have yet to provide evidence and have only made statements like contemplative prayer, the fear of the Lord, and so forth which in and of themselves have nothing wrong with them. I am not writing with a bad attitude I am only trying to get my point across which I believe to be valid.
As for my point on seminaries I believe this sums it up shortly in the video
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77xWI8PnvJs]click here[/url] |
| | 2009/1/13 21:39 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Consider | | davidt,
I want to put the disclaimer tone right up front; what follows is some observations and considerations and are not 'personal'.
I did 'cherry pick' these but have read through the thread for the greater part, skipping over some of the longer extrapolations in particulars (Israel, replacement theology, scriptural ... exegesis, etc.)
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You say they are of another spirit but somewhat of note I would like to say that this is a ministry that both Leonard Ravenhill and Art Katz have been a friend of since its beginnings even til their deaths to a somewhat substantial level. And so in this I mention possibly your own prophets. This is not even to mention the vast fruit that is being produced in the lives of saints.
That is at best a bit misleading. Incidents are not precedents and I think you are stretching the credulity of their involvement. It is not the larger of the points by any means, but I will go on.
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[i]Do you ever notice that God always seems to be raising up a new generation of ________________ (fill in the blank)[/i]
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I hope He is.
You must understand that the Lord is going to strengthen His Church in the last days which we are in. The Bible does say in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh.
You might also be careful not to form a mocking scoffing spirit.
On the contrary, is it not really more your [i]assumption[/i] and also a duplicity that you might think this is so .. to imagine evil of a brother, guess at his motivation from a simple comment?
The truth of the matter is that that is a very accurate statement. These 'new' things are postulated almost daily and are so vague, so indiscriminate, so care-less-ly stated that they mean nothing. There are two responses I would forward; Are they [i]evident[/i]? And if so, where is the [i]evidence[/i]? This prophetic business as it has turned into has multitudes hanging on these people's words and far too often without any testing whatsoever. Not only the test of scripture but moreover just the test of, dare I say it, common sense. What I do see as evident is a certain 'likability' of these men that gives them a pass, clouds their judgments and far too often will use other avenues as support. Much of this is what you are doing here. To be honest, I am somewhat unbiased towards most of this - I see those aforementioned 'other avenues' as worthy, as all well and good, but not at the expense of those concerns that others have mentioned and shared. I know you want staunch, precise-examples but I also see where that is where you come in with a non-stop defense and refuting. There are links elsewhere, have you taken them into account and tried to look at them without your bias? I think the reluctance of getting into all of this is due to those very factors ...
All of that leads to my main point;
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Sorry about making so many posts about this topic I guess but I have just been coming upon these resources progressively. So here is an audio message ...
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I know about google and have studied much on the topic. Even in that I am open to more comments that I have possibly not considered
My comment to you and by your own admission, is that you are far too taken up with all of this. Too many posts. Too ready to come to the defense. Too emotionally attached to a lone ministry. David, it's evident.
A consideration ... Sometimes the only way to get some perspective and hear the concerns of your own Brethren is to detach yourself from what is 'so up in your ears' at any given moment. Go away from it for a season, turn your thoughts elsewhere, be challenged on a different line altogether - These things can sway us even subtly, they begin to color our thinking, give us a certain slant and bent, we get all bound up in them. I hope you can trust I am speaking from a great deal of experience. This very forum would prove it out.
And for the detractors and others, you might find some of the same things applicable here.
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Mike Balog
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| | 2009/1/14 9:10 | Profile |
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