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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Definitions of Revival | | I have just been reading Robert W's post on '[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26199&forum=35&10]an outpouring; the beginning of renewal[/url]'. It brought to mind this continual quest to define what we really mean by 'revival'. In one of the questions in the QnA we revisited this briefly. It is not an academic thing because we run the risk of 'talking past' one another. It happens so often in Christian discussion. We find a level of verbal agreement but on examination we are still miles apart in our understanding.
I presume that almost everyone who visits this site will have at least a passing interest in 'revival' and is praying for such. But if expectation is an integral part of faith, and I am sure it is, just what are we expecting? If 'revival' turned up would we all welcome it? Or would we only welcome it if our own 'definition' of revival turned up? Perhaps more seriously... if someone else's definition of revival turned up would we welcome it or would we seek to control it until it more resembled our own definition of revival?
One of the questions the panel was asked was about hindrances or blockages to revival. My own contribution was an old quotation..."revivals never begin respectably; they only die that way." In fact they frequently die because someone reaches out a hand to 'steady the ark'. In my reading of the history of revival i would put this high on the list of obstacles and blockages. The progress of the ark of the covenant, representing the conscious presence of God among his people, was stopped dead in its tracks by an expert who had more experience of the ark than anyone else.
Surely these records of scripture are a sobering warning to resist the temptation to shape 'revival' according to our own 'definition'.
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Ron Bailey
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 2008/12/3 15:08 | Profile |
paulamicela
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Joined: 2008/6/12
Posts: 40
| | Re: Definitions of Revival | | Mr. Bailey,
My family and I were watching the Q&A discussion live and I thought that quote ("Revivals never begin respectably; they only die that way") was excellent. Thank you so much for sharing that.
-Paul
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Paul W. Lamicela
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| 2008/12/3 16:58 | Profile |
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132
| | Re: interesting | | I believe that true revival is the commanding presence of God where Jesus Christ becomes Christ Jesus our Lord.
Thats is where the trouble comes in, in the assembly of saints we (the leadership, mainly) want something really that we can control, organize, something predictiable. Every human reacts and will react differently when God decides to manifest His presence tangibly. We to often are watching the reaction of individuals who are responding to God. Wildfire or true spiritual experience? A wise shepard will be very inwardly quiet and be able to hear the voice of God during such seasons, and therefore be able to "influence" the direction of a meeting without tampering with The Ark of the Lord, so as to throw it off course. Personally I believe that revival is happening in places all over the world, and in the lives of many believers, but a reformation type revival is a bird of a different color.
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D.Miller
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| 2008/12/3 17:16 | Profile |
trxx
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Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 86
ON Canada
| | Re: Definitions of Revival | | There are as many definitions for revival as there are people teaching/talking of revival.I found the simplest definition for revival in the Bible. One word describes for me the essence of revival. That one word is Pentecost. We don't need to define it any further except to one who might not understand what happened at Pentecost when God poured out His Holy Spirit on the Church.
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Bruce
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| 2008/12/3 21:47 | Profile |
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
We to often are watching the reaction of individuals who are responding to God.
There is always a great danger when men feast their eyes upon others to judge the way in which they are responding to God.
[color=000066]And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. (II Samuel 6:14)
And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and [u]she despised him in her heart.[/u](v. 16)
[/color]
Many times in scripture God's judgments are exemplary. In one swift response, He demonstrates forever His estimate of that certain behavior by His response to it. God searches the hearts and is watching how we react to others responding to Him. Are they critical? Are they despising? Or are they excited and rejoicing with them that rejoice?
This is a terrible consideration in which we ought to guard our hearts and minds in fear and trembling. The consequences of this attitude were staggering. What was God's estimate of her despising David's response to God? Can it be discovered in His response?
[color=000066]And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. (II Samuel 6)[/color]
You will notice that God did to Michal what He did to the world in Noah's time and Sodom and Gomorrah. He utterly removed their progeny. There was no means by which any could ever utter the proverb, like mother- like daughter. God ensured that this attitude would never be duplicated or proliferated forever [i]by her[/i].
When the Ark came into the camp there were two things God set forth as eternal examples of what [u]not[/u] to do when His authority and presence returns:
1) Do not try put your hands on- to steady the Ark.
2) Do not despise the response of others- no matter how 'vile' you may think they behave.
In both cases we have God's estimate of the behaviors and they are a solemn warning to anyone that takes God seriously or pretends to fear the Lord.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| 2008/12/4 5:52 | Profile |
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
I found the simplest definition for revival in the Bible. One word describes for me the essence of revival. That one word is Pentecost. We don't need to define it any further except to one who might not understand what happened at Pentecost when God poured out His Holy Spirit on the Church.
So could those who received the Spirit at Pentecost receive a subsequent Pentecostal effusion? I have a lot of sympathy with your view but I would like to pursue the implications.
Just what did happen at Pentecost? Was this a subsequent experience for the already regenerate or was this the moment of regeneration and the birth of the church? If it was the latter how can revival happen to those who are already regenerate and part of the church?
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Ron Bailey
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| 2008/12/4 7:27 | Profile |
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330
| | Re: | | Quote:
philologos wrote:
So could those who received the Spirit at Pentecost receive a subsequent Pentecostal effusion? I have a lot of sympathy with your view but I would like to pursue the implications.
Just what did happen at Pentecost? Was this a subsequent experience for the already regenerate or was this the moment of regeneration and the birth of the church? If it was the latter how can revival happen to those who are already regenerate and part of the church?
I think we all could agree that what happened to those men at Pentecost was very supernatural. I mean there was power available and working in them that caused them to do extraordinary things. Signs and wonders followed their ministry.
There has been only brief moments in history where only a few men came close to doing what the original Apostles were in the beginning of the church age.
I do believe God can fill His church again like He did on the day of Pentecost but it will only be on those who are as surrendered to Him as they were. I do not believe it will be wholesale.
I believe their will have to be a people prepared by the working of God, a wholly committed people to the revelation of the reality of that original experience, and a committed desire to be wholly possessed of God. |
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| 2008/12/4 8:06 | Profile |
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | I suppose I am still searching for that elusive New Testament doctrine of revival. There really is nothing in the New Testament record that corresponds to our modern concept of revival.
Please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I read the accounts of wonderful outpourings of God's Spirit from the Reformation onwards which we call 'revival' but I am 'biblebased' and I look for a biblical basis for my understanding. I believe in sovereign movings of God's Spirit. What I am trying to do is find a New Testament theology for such a phenomena. Otherwise we can turn our back on the Bible teachers and just listen to the church historians.
It would be interesting to get some definitions of 'revival' here. What are we praying for?
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Ron Bailey
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| 2008/12/4 10:09 | Profile |
HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179
| | Re: | | For the light of the Lord to be shed abroad into the hearts of the people - that they may come to know the fullness of Him. That they may be awakened from the darkness that has held them captive - that they may be set free. |
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| 2008/12/4 10:27 | Profile |
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada
| | Re: | | Quote:
philologos wrote:
I suppose I am still searching for that elusive New Testament doctrine of revival.
Doesn't the very term revival channel our thinking to what is behind us? To revive something is to bring it to life again. And so most people when calling for revival, usually they are thinking in terms of a return of something of a past day.
I don't think we can ever succeed in persuading God to be content to return to yesterday.
However... Jesus told His disciples "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things" (Mt. 17.11). He no doubt had in mind the occasion when Elijah "repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down" (1 Kings 18.30).
This prepared the way of the Lord, and the glory of the Lord fell and consumed the sacrifice.
Peter is referring to this same thing in The Acts when he talks of "Jesus Christ... whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets..." (Acts 3.21).
And the word "restitution" there in the Greek is the same word Jesus used, which is translated "restore" in Mt. 17.11.
So there is a returning of things to the way God wants them to be... to prepare the way for the glory of God.
Which part of it is the revival? The work of the Elijahs, who contend with the prophets of Baal, and build again the altar of God that has been broken down?
Or is it the wondrous time when the fire falls?
Is it the work of John the Baptist calling to repentance, and preparing the way of the Lord?
Or is it the Glory of the Lord Himself coming on the scene?
In any case we must be always have in mind God's goal in it all: nothing less than the glory of the Lord in the church.
Of course this often means, maybe always means, we don't comprehend the implications of the Glory being present with us. It ends up blowing our own limited thinking out of the water, as they say.
John the Baptist himself, although he prepared the way, didn't fully understand the Way the Glory was moving when He did come.
Let us find grace to recognize it's likely the same with us. When the Glory we long for comes forth it will no doubt be far, far greater than we are now conceiving. Let's be prepared for that... and ready to say good-bye to old forms.
AD
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Allan Halton
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| 2008/12/4 13:06 | Profile |
