| Poster | Thread | boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV
| | Re: christians that are baptized with the Holy Ghost | | Quote:
Desire spiritual gifts, absolutely. But Paul also ends chapter 12 and seguays into chapter 13 with "Desire the best gifts (meaning not all are the "best" gifts!). And now I will show you a more excellent way..."
I did a quick search on the word "best":
"more useful, more serviceable, more advantageous, more excellent"
And it is also translated variously as:
"best, better, greater, more important"
Personally, I do not regard any gift greater than another, in themselves, as they are all given from above ([b]James 1:17[/b]). As you well marked that every gift is given as the Holy Spirit wills and not as we humans so desire in our sentiments -- considering those things that might bring us the greater honor.
However, in that regard, as He wills, there are greater or better or best gifts to be given in consideration of each member of the body of Christ. (A tongue isn't going to be very effective as a hand, will it? Or an eye that tastes rather than sees? Indeed not.)
Every gift has its purpose and function sanctified unto the Lord. And every gift is profitable for every good work and for the witness that Jesus of Nazareth is both Christ and Lord.
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What is the more excellent way? Love. What giftings focus on love? Helps... Hospitality... Giving... Evangelism... etc etc... the gifts that dont get discussed much, at least not as much as the gifts that get us noticed by those around us.
I would have to make a correction on this idea. I do not believe Paul was trying to say, "desire those gifts that focus on love." But much rather, "[b]let every gift be found in love.[/b]"
The fruits of the Spirit are the foundation for the gifts of the Spirit. They are to go hand in hand. Just as Paul describes to the Corinthians, "many members" yet "one body" and "many gifts" yet "One Spirit."
And, even, by One Spirit baptized into one body ([b]1 Corinthians 12:13[/b]).
None-the-less, excellent point on bringing it back to the true focus and value of the "less honorable" gifts and members (as it so seems in our eyes).
[b]1 Corinthians 12
22.[/b] On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
[b]23.[/b] and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable,
[b]24.[/b] whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
[b]25.[/b] so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
In my opinion, if "Helps... Hospitality... Giving... Evangelism... etc etc..." were actively being pursued in holiness then the gifts of the Spirit would be in common abundance. As I said, the Spirit of Love is the foundation by which all the gifts spring forth.
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I am not aking whether Christians who are not baptized with the Holy Ghost will to heaven or not, but if they will go in the rapture. There are those (NOT I) who believe that they who are sanctified and/or filled with the Holy Ghost are going in the rapture and the Christians who are not will go through the tribulation.
Personally, I give no credence to teachings on the rapture. Will it happen, yes, I believe so. When? -- pre, mid, post, etc. -- no idea.
I have heard arguments for many variations, ok, they all sound fine. Does that mean they are all true? No. Only that the truth is still sealed up. And that is the main problem I have with teachings on Revelation and end time prophecies. I have never, ever!, heard anyone talk about how there are still things sealed up that the Father has fixed by His own authority -- wherein it is not our place to know until the day it is revealed from heaven. Rather, there are commentaries and (probably) children's coloring books and movies all over the place as though it was all black-and-white, clear as day; "we got it all figured out."
So, the question of how the rapture shall happen is one question. But now you have compounded the mystery with another mystery, by asking, if there are Christians who are NOT baptized and/or filled with the Holy Ghost.
We might argue, as we say life begins at conception so likewise a Christian is born-again at the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Or, perhaps, there is a distinction between [b]a believer "born of the Spirit"[/b] and a [b]"Spirit-filled believer"[/b] -- [u]not in question of salvation[/u], but for the purpose of being a witness with power from on high. And these are discussions concerning the "Second Blessing."
There is no question as to whether any Christian is being saved unto the Day the Lord returns.
[b]Romans 8
16.[/b] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
And, if we have not this witness, then we are not Christian. Well said, brother Krispy.
However, such a question within a question on top of a question is all beyond me -- and I honestly wouldn't give much ear to anyone who says they have this figured out. Just like with most end time prophecies. They sound interesting, there might be some good scripture to support, but it isn't something we can necessarily base our lives upon.
I will say as Martin Luther said, "There are only two days on my calendar: Today and that Day (Judgment Day)."
And, again, as Jesus commands us, "do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."
Don't worry about the rapture, concern yourself with faith, hope, and love because our Lord Jesus is coming quickly to judge the living and the dead.
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Jordan
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|  2008/11/7 14:05 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
I am not claiming to hold the belief of only Holy Ghost baptized christian being the only ines going in the rapture.
Brother Jerry... we just found common ground!
Krispy |
| | 2008/11/7 14:10 | | elected
Member
Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK
| | Re: | |
Christ is the one who baptizes with the Holy Ghost. In the book of acts of the apostles there are instances where people were baptized and filled with Holy Ghost the moment they were converted and believed Jesus as Lord and Savior, Cornelius and his household is one example.Its really difficult to find support from the book of acts and letters of the apostles that Baptism in the holy Spirit is a post conversion experiece.
We are commanded by Paul to continually be filled with the Spirit but not to look for an after conversion experience of being Baptized with the Spirit.There is something mystical about the baptism with the Holy Spirit. We often limit the truth of scripture by our experience and reason and theological convictions.
There is one baptism, one faith and one Lord. The moment we were truly regenerated by the holy Spirit and born from above the Holy Spirit came to indwell us, comfort us, guide us to all truth.
Indwelling Christ and abiding in Christ and bearing fruit and doing the will of God in our daily life or being filled with the pure love of God are evidences that the Spirit is in control of your life. At the same time the daily need to be filled with Holy Spirit is necessary.
Many godly men like Jonathan Edwards, Wesley, Finney, Moody,Evan Roberts,Duncan Campbell, Andrew Murray,Ravenhill,Jonathan Goforth, Robert M. MCcheyne, all of them had powerful post conversion experiences that changed, transformed, empowered then to be powerful witnesses for Christ.What was after all the great awakening in 18th century in America, the methodist revival in Great Britain, or the Second Great awakening in America and the subsequent revivals in 19th and 20th century in America, Great Britain and on the mission fields in China, Korea, India, Africa but a powerful pentecost of induviduals and local churches?
Alas we often are victimes of our traditions and prejudices and theological systems that harden our hearts, puff us up with biblical knowledge but make us proud of our stoic stand for orthodoxy. Knowledge is not the fulfilment of the law but God pure love shead abroad on the heart of christian and its daily application is the fulfillment of the law. The pharises in Jesus time were the very radical and uncompromising for the traditions of their forfathers but they were blind and whitewashed tombs. God save us from such a pharisaic spirit of self-exaltaion or being religiously proud of our evangelical inherintance, or our self-sufficency, or our dead and suffocating orthodoxy.
Whenever rapture will take place i can't tell it, but one thing i know Jesus is comming for his beautiful Bride to take her up to heaven, he is comming for the overcommers, for those who have the pure robe of righteousness, those who have received him in their hearts as their justifier and sanctifier. May our lamps be burning and shining till his second commimg, may he save us from lukewarmness, spiritual blindness and self-love.
Jesus knocking at the door of the church, at the door of each lukewarm christian today, what a tragedy! The presence of God is gone from among many in our midts and many dont even perceive it in their daily routine. We need the holy silence, we have lost the closet of communion and intimacy with God, we have lost the fear of God, the vision of holiness. In our fast paced and noisy activities we have ignored the small and gentle voice of the Holy Spirit.
We have lost the anointing, the first love for our Savior, the simplicity and humility of the child of God. We have lost a humble and contrite heart, we have lost the instinct to go agaist the worldly tide, lost the awareness of the presence of God.
_________________
Redi
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| | 2008/11/7 16:11 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | This is the kind of gift we should be stirring up in each other, as Paul stirred up in Timothy.
2 Timothy 1:1-9 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
""Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.""
"which was given us in Christ Jesus, "Before the world began".
Ephesians 1:1-9 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: (((((According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:))))) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself: Check out all the H'.
This is the gift of God we should be stirring up in each other. We should not be arguing about who has the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and which are the best. For they are not our gifts, but of the Gifted One, Jesus Christ. If we stir up the Gift of Christ in us, then the Holy Spirit will be able to use all the gifts as He pleases for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ, His Church. This is the, "purpose in Himself".
"according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will,"
Where is the mystery and Glory of God? "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."
Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Leave the working of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the Gifted One Himself and the Holy Spirit will make sure that all the gifts Christ are used according to His Good Pleasure, and none will lack in the building of the Kingdom of Christ in Heavenly Places where we are already seated, with, in, through and by Him, the Spirit of Christ that dwelleth in us.
With out His Spirit we are none of His no matter what the gifts we think we have. With out His Gifts given to men and operated in the Holy Spirit, all gifts are carnally operated of man in his own self exhalation.
Romans 8:6-12 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness, (no gifts, except counterfeit of the devil for the dead body of sin), But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
But to live after the Spirit of Christ in us.
Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself (praying in tongues does nothing) He maketh intercession for us with groanings which ((((cannot)))) be uttered. And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Let the Spirit operate the Gifts and we will not even know when they are being used, but they will be used by The Holy Spirit to build up the Body of Christ, His Church. Seek Him first and all these things will be added unto you, not for our profit but for His. It was He that went to the Cross and took us with Him.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
In Christ Jesus the Gifted One:
Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2008/11/7 18:17 | Profile |
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