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Jeppe
Member



Joined: 2007/5/14
Posts: 25
The Netherlands

 Re:

Some are saying that all sin is willfull; if every action and thought a human being makes sterns from our will then it is so. But there is a difference between intentional sin, and unintentional sin. Sin trough ignorance and sin while you know something is wrong.

To me it comes across as if some are thinking that when to the best of their knowledge and ability they are obeying God and have a clear conscience and are walking in the light they are sinlessly perfect: i.e. no known sin.
Of course walking in this way is possible and also desired of a cristian. But this does not mean that if God would look on your actions he does not see any sin.
This is one of the reasons we need to walk in the light so that Jesus blood CLEANSES us from ALL unrightouesness

Some seem to say if you do not know something is wrong and you do it anyway, that this is not sin.. This would make us judge and jury over what is sin and what not. Off course you know people are judged on Gods standards not our own not even the standard of our consience.

If you unintentionally hurt a person whether it be trough ingorance or not, and later you find out, you appolagize and maybe ask forgiveness. Why? If it was an accident, then since it was unintentianal then no blame rests on you right? no of course not. You might say:' i didn't intend to hurt you, my conscience was clear. There is no blame on me.' Yet damage is done and there is no way to turn it.

In the same way you may walk with a clear conscience right now, but maybe you have hurt someone and maybe even God himself, whithout you knowing it right now, but it will be revealed at the judgement seat. So don't say you have no sin.

In old testament times, sin trough ignorance also had to be paid for by a blood sacrifice. Now also even our 'unwillfull' sin has to be washed off of us by the blood of Jesus.

Numbers 15:
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. 28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. 30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Quote:
Accidents are not sins. Hope you don't punish your children for accidents!



This looks like an accident. Gods standard was different than Uzza's:

1 Chronicles 13:9-10
9 And when they came unto the threshingfloor of Chidon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark; for the oxen stumbled. 10 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.

In regards to "death being the savior of sin":

Imagine being on an airplane that's going to crash. Some on the plane have parachutes others don't. The ones whith the parachutes will safely float to the ground and will be able to go to their loved ones. The ones without parachutes will crash into the ground with high speed and die instantly.
You say earth is the reason that some are saved from falling and are able to go to their loved ones. I say the reason is the parachute, setting foot on earth was only the time that they were ultimatly saved from falling (falling stopped) and could go see their loved ones.

(It's only an example to make a point)

Jeppe


_________________
Jeppe

 2008/6/11 18:17Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KrispyKrittr wrote:

Logic... your doctrine and theology is way off. Sorry to tell you that. The very fact that we CAN NOT attain perfection, and keep every letter of the Law is the very reason we NEED Jesus!

No, The very reason we need Jesus is because we WILL NOT be perfect and to show us how when we WILL.

If we couldn't, we'd be innocent for not being perfectly sinnless.

How do you refute my last post to you?


No one has yet answered my as to why they can't stop sinning?
And if they can't, why would that be a sin?

Maybe you can tell me why you can't stop sinning?

 2008/6/11 18:25Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""Phil, this is a christian discussion, not a new-age discussion. We don't need your new-age philosophies in this conversation.

"birthing" is not in sin."""

But the pain in giving that birth was because of Eve's sin. That is why even in Davids conception and birth he would be brought forth in pain because of sin. Just ask any woman that has given birth.

It was not because of the parents conceiving him, for it was in lawful wedlock. "and in sin did my mother conceive me;" by whom cannot be meant Eve; for though she is the mother of all living, and so of David, yet could not, with any propriety, be said to conceive him: this only could be said of his immediate parent, it means not even of his next grandmother, much less of Eve, at the distance of almost three thousand years. But, the pain in birth was because of Eve's sin. Nor does the sin in which he was conceived intend any sin of his parents, in begetting and conceiving him, being in lawful wedlock; which acts cannot be sinful, since the propagation of the human species by natural generation is a principle of nature implanted by God himself; and is agreeably to the first law of nature, given to man in a state of innocence, "increase and multiply",

Nor is the sin David speaks of any actual sin of his own, and therefore he does not call it, as before, "my" iniquity and "my" sin; though it was so, he having sinned in Adam, and this being in his nature; but "iniquity" and "sin", it being common to him with all mankind. The pain of his mother giving childbirth being the signature of God, that sin is his nature.

What's this new age stuff? I am not a brahman, a buddist, a Chakras, I dont do black or white magic, I am not Christian science, I don't believe in the power of christals, I am not a Druid, I don't practice; Eastern mysticism, Esp or Est, I don't believe in gnosticism, Hare Krishna, higher consciousness, Hinduism, human potential movement, I don't practice or believe in Kaballah, karma, Magick, Mind Science, Native American spirituality, near-death experiences, neo-paganism, nirvana, parapsychology, prana, psi, psychic, reflexology, reiki, reincarnation, Religious Science, shamanism, Silva Mind Control, spiritism, Tai Chi, Taoism, tarot cards, Theosophy, therapeutic touch, trance-channeling, Transcendental Meditation, transpersonal psychology, UFOs, Unity School of Christianity, Witchcraft, yin-yang, Yoga, and Zen.

UFOs, only by what Walter Martin has taught.

I do believe that Jesus Christ is my life and have backed it up with many scriptures. This goes beyond what the Church believes and would say; Oh, yes Christ is in me. This is a Spiritual and physical change in who I am, Not only am I in Christ but He is in me. The Holy Spirit is my Teacher, and God is my Father, making me a son. This body has been quickened to contain the Seed of Christ, whom the Father has birthed in me. My Spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, my soul is governed and taught by the Holy Spirit and my body will be just like Jesus Christ at His coming for His Body the Chruch, His Bride, in the first resurrection.

New age philophesy I thing not. Truth of scripture; Amen.

It is important for Christians to recognize even the most disguised forms of the New Age Movement.

But one of them, I am not. But I am a new creature in Christ, a new creation race of God's people, son's and daughters of God.

In Christ: Phillip





_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/11 18:35Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

I believe the article "The Balance Between Human Logic and God’s Logic", may shed light into this discussion. It is [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23974&forum=35]here[/url]


_________________
TJ

 2008/6/11 18:54Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Nor is the sin David speaks of any actual sin of his own, and therefore he does not call it, as before, "my" iniquity and "my" sin; though it was so, he having sinned in Adam,

No one "sinned [b]in[/b] adam"!

Quote:
and this being in his nature; but "iniquity" and "sin", it being common to him with all mankind. The pain of his mother giving childbirth being the signature of God, that sin is his nature.

The pain in giving childbirth is not the signature of God that sin is anyones nature.
The Scripturse do not even imply that!

Quote:
What's this new age stuff?

"Christ birthed in you", "The matter of who's faith, not a matter of who it's on", "dark faith"...ect...
It may not ge "new-age", but it certainly ain't christian.

Quote:
I do believe that Jesus Christ is my life and have backed it up with many scriptures.

You may back the things you say with the mishandeling of Scripture.
And you use so many irrelevant Scriptures, it's dificult to know what your talking about.
Mainly because you quote Scriptures that I know the meaning of, but you twist them around, thinking they prove your points.

Quote:
This goes beyond what the Church believes and would say; Oh, yes Christ is in me. This is a Spiritual and physical change in who I am,

What's the physical change?

Quote:
Not only am I in Christ but He is in me. The Holy Spirit is my Teacher

This is half the truth, if He is your teacher, then what about all your unchristian theologies?

Quote:
and God is my Father, making me a son. This body has been quickened to contain the Seed of Christ, whom the Father has birthed in me.

This is one of your wacko theologies.
The Seed is Christ HimSelf, not His Spirit. (Gal 3:16)
Furthermore, No where in the Scriptures is Christ birthed in anyone.

Quote:
My Spirit is now the Spirit of Christ,

This is another one of your wacko theologies.
Your spirit may be one with His, but it ain't His as His ain't yours.

Quote:
my soul is governed and taught by the Holy Spirit

Does HE teach you to be stuborn in your bad theology? You will not take correction.
I've proven you to be in error many times and you still persist in your bad theologies.

Quote:
New age philophesy I think not. Truth of scripture; Amen.

Then why do you reject a lot of truth in Scripture to keep your wacky theologies?
You willnot listen, youv'e proven that, you will not take the truth.

Quote:
It is important for Christians to recognize even the most disguised forms of the New Age Movement.

But one of them, I am not.

Even though your theology does not match up with any of the above mentioned new-age, you still have unchristian theologies.

 2008/6/11 20:03Profile
bonni
Member



Joined: 2005/8/9
Posts: 100
montana usa

 my conclusion

After reading all these posts it seems obvious to me that we need to make a distinction between "sinless perfection" and "total obedience".


There are times that I need to reprove my 17 year old daughter about something. She responds to me by saying " I didn't realize that I did that, I see that now, I'm sorry Mom".

Although she may not have realized that she did something wrong (sin), I still needed to bring it to her attention because it was less than perfect.

There are many things in us that we do not see at the present, that doesn't mean that God doesn't see those things that fall short of His perfection and Holiness. But just because He sees that imperfection (sin) doesn't mean that He imputes that sin to us. He will impute that sin to us only after He brings it to our attention and we refuse to acknowledge it and repent.


There are things that I exact from my 17 year old that I do not exact from my 6 year old grandaughter at this present time. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize things that need to be perfected in her it just means that it is not time yet.

Both my daughter and my little grandaughter can be totally obedient to me at whatever maturity (perfection) level they happen to be at. My grandaughter is not "less" obedient for her maturity level than my daughter, although she is definitely "less" mature. We will never be complete in perfection in this life, for this life is a process, going from glory to glory. But we can be totally obedient, acknowledging all imperfections (sins) that our Father brings to our attention, repenting, and submitting. This is "Perfecting holliness"


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I repented of my sin (nature) and beleived on Christ who shed His blood to wash and make me clean and accepted by the Father. God then sent His Holy Spirit to live in me, to birth me spiritually.

By Jesus' blood I was "forgiven" of all my sin, God was faithful to "forgive" (righteousness imputed). By the Holy Spirit perfecting holiness in me I am being "cleansed" on a continual basis (righteousness imparted). This righteousness imparted is what makes me able to be obedient.

I thank God through our Lord Jesus Christ( Him sending His Spirit to live in us) that sin does not have dominion over us anymore! There is no excuse to walk in disobedience.


We can be "Totally Obedient" but "Sinless Perfection" will only come when we are in our cellestial bodies, and when we shall see Him face to face we shall be like Him!


What a glorious day!!!!!

Blessings, bonni


_________________
Bonni

 2008/6/11 21:01Profile
bonni
Member



Joined: 2005/8/9
Posts: 100
montana usa

 Re: Jeppes post

Hi Jeppe.

I just finished reading your post. It wasn't there when I wrote my last response.

If it would of been, I would of just said AMEN, instead of posting!


Blessings, bonni :-D


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Bonni

 2008/6/11 21:09Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

"No one sinned in Adam"

Why did all die without the Law?

Please explain this sin that entered the world by one man, Adam.

Romans 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Christ, Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/11 21:13Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: Logic wrote,

""""Christ birthed in you", "The matter of who's faith, not a matter of who it's on", "dark faith"...ect...
It may not ge "new-age", but it certainly ain't christian.""""

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Logic are you saying the the Faith of the Son of God is dark Faith?

If I live by the faith of the Son of God there is only One the Faith can be upon.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/11 21:23Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Logic wrote,

Quote:

"""What's the physical change?"""

2 Corinthians 4:7-11 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Also Quote:

""and God is my Father, making me a son. This body has been quickened to contain the Seed of Christ, whom the Father has birthed in me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is one of your wacko theologies.
The Seed is Christ HimSelf, not His Spirit. (Gal 3:16)
Furthermore, No where in the Scriptures is Christ birthed in anyone.

1 Peter 1:19-24 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

The Word, (Logos)

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Logos was made flesh. The Logos was God.

"Being born again of Incorruptable Seed of the Logos of God."

You must be born again to see the things of the kingdom.

Do you believe in the virgin birth?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/6/11 21:43Profile





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