| Poster | Thread | HopeinChrist
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Well, we are called to be discerning and compassionate, as such the premises that you cannot show compassion without judging something/someone is false.
If you will look at what I wrote again, I am not talking about a righteous biblical judging of sin but a carnal one based upon ones .......hmmm, maybe circumstances would be the word to better convey the thought. To rightly discern ones spiritual state should actually increase our compassion but if we get hung up on what meets the physical eye we will never get past that.
HopeInChrist |
|  2008/4/16 6:20 | Profile | VioNectro
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Joined: 2007/12/27
Posts: 4
| | Re: | | Sorry man maybe my reply was a bit ambiguous in the sense of its intended target, I was referring to the section: "The presenter said, It is impossible to show compassion to someone whom you are judging."
What I was saying that in the literal sense the presenters statement is contradictory to what scripture teaches. (just painting with broad strokes if you know what I mean)
I think its always important always to understand the difference between making a judgment and passing a condemnation or rebuke if you prefer.
Regarding attire itself; I cannot claim to be any expert on the topic biblically but I always hear the statement thrown around 'as long as your decently and modestly covered'. Perhaps someone can give us some scriptural reference on the topic of dress in terms of worship?
My local church's is flexible on the issue; the only time they really say something is when someone who is leading (worship preaching etc) rocks up in shorts and slip slops.
I'm quite keen to know if there is any biblical bases for attire in church other than the comments on modesty and of course the thing about head coverings(for women with hair loss? - lol my interpretation on that one :)) |
| | 2008/4/16 8:08 | Profile | PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | I stand united with the same convictions as brother Keith Daniel who has preached numerous times that with churches turning away from God, the first thing to go is the standard of dress. After this, it is the music. After the music, the preaching. I have seen judgmentalism in dress swing just as condescendingly toward them that wear [i]godly and modest[/i] attire as to those who wear beach and recreational attire to church, though we never quite make an issue of the former, do we? I'll never forget the first time I decided to start wearing nice slacks and white shirts and a tie to church, and combing my hair neatly and conservatively. It was during the time I was getting my credentials, and I was impressed to begin demonstrating an outward appearance of the same inner purity God was working.
A college kid in my church teased me, "Look at you, man! A tie! You trying to look all holy?"
I realize how far we've fallen from even the standard of modesty in dress, let alone the diligent attending of our hearts. Your outward appearance is merely the reflection of something on the inside. If you are accustomed to wearing sandals and shorts or raggy jeans and t-shirts to church with the "if someone doesn't like how I dress, they can take it up with God" atutude, I would counter that you are just as much at odds with the Holy Spirit as those who would judge you by your clothes on the surface. In fact, their judgment would probably be justified by reason alone of your own rebellious indignation at their judging of your own selfish preservation of immodest image.
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2008/4/16 10:28 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
PaulWest wrote:
I stand united with the same convictions as brother Keith Daniel who has preached numerous times that with churches turning away from God, the first thing to go is the standard of dress. After this, it is the music. After the music, the preaching.
That's interesting. My thinking is that it would be the other way around.
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| | 2008/4/16 18:32 | | PaulWest
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That's interesting. My thinking is that it would be the other way around.
I can understand your logic in thinking that, but Satan is much smarter than we are. Brother Keith is correct here, and let me explain why. Deception always comes in gradually, from the most insignificant point working its way more and more into the clearing, like a snake creeping out from the high grass toward an unsuspecting rabbit. It is an acclimating process; Satan knows that if he immediately flys out and strikes at the gospel, deception will be apparent to all in the church and people will not tolerate it. So he begins a flanking movement in the high grass of a lax dress standard. Insignificant enough - or so people believe - but, in fact, very effective in preparing the heart for further [i]insignificancies[/i], all the while inexorably making his way toward an eventual attack and seize on the preaching of the Word. He won't brazenly hit the Word until he first gets close enough by meticulously conditioning the hearts of the people to fall prey to his grand objective. By gradually lowering the standard of dress and music, he accomplishes measure-by-measure the necessary stepping stones to achieve his ultimate goal.
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2008/4/16 18:53 | Profile | VioNectro
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Joined: 2007/12/27
Posts: 4
| | Re: | | I would imagine that this is a very relative thing; I mean you would not exactly expect that a tribe for example in the middle of nowhere in 3rd world Africa would be wearing a suit to church. However, I would expect them to be modestly and decently covered.
Now; I would also put forward that coming without the correct attire is better than not coming at all.
Does any one know of any scripture that directly references the dress of a follower of the Lord when we congregate? (Other than garments that shine like the sun of course :))? I ask because honestly I don't know. If the Bible is silent on the topic is there any other text one can draw from? |
| | 2008/4/17 0:59 | Profile | running2win
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Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA
| | Re: | | I think what we need to realize is that in the story originally posted the point is much much deeper than church attire. By getting hung up on the clothing part we're completely missing what the story was meant to say.
And yes, I think it is in many ways a relative thing.
For example: there was this young man who grew up on a ranch in Montana and never knew anything but "cowboy" garb. He went to a Youth Bible School on the east coast. He came dressed in his Sunday best, which was modest, neat, and clean... but still "western" since he didn't know any different. Another young man approached him and said "you'd better not come to [i]my[/i] church looking like that!"
And the break down is here: to the easter young man that kind of dress is worn by those who are rebellious and trying to make a statement about it (which is very true in the culture from which he comes). But even so, his "reference point" doesn't excuse his judgmental heart. The Western young man was doing his honest best to dress his best for God... and western wear was all he knew.
But sadly for many they take scenarios like this and use it as an excuse to justify them dressing the way [i]they[/i] want to. The root issue is they're still more concerned about themselves and doing what they want. There is still some (ever so small) root of selfishness in their hearts. And that goes for many different issues in life.
Music, clothing, I think of a discussion on here a number of months ago about tattoos, etc. If you find yourself needing to "stick up" for what you do then that means that there's still some concern about YOU that you need to ask God to deal with.
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Jeff Mollman
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| | 2008/4/17 5:13 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
PaulWest wrote:
Quote:
That's interesting. My thinking is that it would be the other way around.
I can understand your logic in thinking that, but Satan is much smarter than we are. Brother Keith is correct here, and let me explain why. Deception always comes in gradually, from the most insignificant point working its way more and more into the clearing, like a snake creeping out from the high grass toward an unsuspecting rabbit. It is an acclimating process; Satan knows that if he immediately flys out and strikes at the gospel, deception will be apparent to all in the church and people will not tolerate it. So he begins a flanking movement in the high grass of a lax dress standard. Insignificant enough - or so people believe - but, in fact, very effective in preparing the heart for further [i]insignificancies[/i], all the while inexorably making his way toward an eventual attack and seize on the preaching of the Word. He won't brazenly hit the Word until he first gets close enough by meticulously conditioning the hearts of the people to fall prey to his grand objective. By gradually lowering the standard of dress and music, he accomplishes measure-by-measure the necessary stepping stones to achieve his ultimate goal.
That makes sense to me. My husband and I were visiting this fellowship and the preaching is average, it sounds convicting but there is alot of compromising. The pastors wife and other women in the choir dress seductively. I know in the worlds standards 4 inch heals, backless low cut dresses are no big deal but satan atleast knows better. Anyone who has any sense to things in the spiritual realm should know that others will think if the pastors wife can do it so can I and "if she can dress that way certainly dancing and different styles of music are ok. too."
Your right by saying that its not the preaching first that goes but I think the heart of the preacher and the low standard of the church has much to do with it. Satan knows the thoughts of the pastor when he is preaching in the pulpit. He can say a lot of things but is his heart really in it? Satan will surely test him and find out and Im sure he does do this by means of using others in the church to test him. Lets see what they say if I wear this or listen to that.
John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
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| | 2008/4/17 11:41 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Psalm18 wrote:
Quote:
PaulWest wrote:
Quote:
That's interesting. My thinking is that it would be the other way around.
I can understand your logic in thinking that, but Satan is much smarter than we are. Brother Keith is correct here, and let me explain why. Deception always comes in gradually, from the most insignificant point working its way more and more into the clearing, like a snake creeping out from the high grass toward an unsuspecting rabbit. It is an acclimating process; Satan knows that if he immediately flys out and strikes at the gospel, deception will be apparent to all in the church and people will not tolerate it. So he begins a flanking movement in the high grass of a lax dress standard. Insignificant enough - or so people believe - but, in fact, very effective in preparing the heart for further [i]insignificancies[/i], all the while inexorably making his way toward an eventual attack and seize on the preaching of the Word. He won't brazenly hit the Word until he first gets close enough by meticulously conditioning the hearts of the people to fall prey to his grand objective. By gradually lowering the standard of dress and music, he accomplishes measure-by-measure the necessary stepping stones to achieve his ultimate goal.
That makes sense to me. My husband and I were visiting this fellowship and the preaching is average, it sounds convicting but there is alot of compromising. The pastors wife and other women in the choir dress seductively. I know in the worlds standards 4 inch heals, backless low cut dresses are no big deal but satan atleast knows better. Anyone who has any sense to things in the spiritual realm should know that others will think if the pastors wife can do it so can I and "if she can dress that way certainly dancing and different styles of music are ok. too."
Your right by saying that its not the preaching first that goes but I think the heart of the preacher and the low standard of the church has much to do with it. Satan knows the thoughts of the pastor when he is preaching in the pulpit. He can say a lot of things but is his heart really in it? Satan will surely test him and find out and Im sure he does do this by means of using others in the church to test him. Lets see what they say if I wear this or listen to that.
John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Psalm18, great point! This is the issue that is overlooked, not so much, in my humble opinion, how we dress, verse's a suit and dockers, but how much we are NOT wearing! We have no modesty in many churches, I have seen woman wearing practically nothing! Something you would wear to night club! Men are the same way, I have seen men who are physically fit, wearing shirts that really enhance there physique, I have even seen some go shirtless at co-ed retreats or fellowships outside of church.It sends the wrong message. It is not preached from the pulpits, heck some of the preachers don't even abide by this rule. I could be naive, but I think the issue is more what Psalm18 has commented, than if a cowboy walks in a church of people wearing suits or dresses.
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| | 2008/4/19 10:06 | | PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
It is not preached from the pulpits, heck some of the preachers don't even abide by this rule. I could be naive, but I think the issue is more what Psalm18 has commented, than if a cowboy walks in a church of people wearing suits or dresses.
Amen. I may be wrong also, but I think the reason immodesty is allowed to continue in many fellowships can be due to the fact of the Pastor's unwillingness or fear to confront the issue of dress at the very beginning. It's not nipped in the bud, and therefore it's allowed to grow and send roots deeper down into bedrock of the congregation's soul. Sooner or later, the preaching must change, it must soften somewhat to give way for the allowance. Interestingly enough, you still might hear strong preaching on abstaining from all appearances of evil and the exhortation to embrace righteousness... but modesty in dress will no longer be directed in a personal way to the congregants once it is allowed to go on too long. This is because while the Pastor slept on the issue, the tides steadily rose. The water is at a level now that, were he to move his arms and attempt to swim, great splashes and waves will bring division and a rift.
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2008/4/19 10:20 | Profile |
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