| Poster | Thread | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | Quote:
Sometimes Calvinists make the worst Calvinists!
dear katy-did, come on sister. i disagree with certain teachings of calvinism, but some of the comments you say are neither helpful nor encouraging to the calvinist to continue discussing the issue.
i hope you can understand what i'm trying to say to you.
brother roaringlamb, i appreiciate your conversation.. like i said yesterday, it's always fun.
phil
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|  2008/1/24 11:32 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
but some of the comments you say are neither helpful nor encouraging to the calvinist to continue discussing the issue.
What do you hope to gain by discussing the issue?
I believe my comments are Christ centered, and Gospel Centered.
So, no I won't "Come On" and stop.
To say that America is losing it's Christian roots because one does not adhere to the doctrines of Calvinism that one cannot repent with out being first regenerated is a total slap in the face to the Gospel.
And accusing all other forms( other then the Calvin way) as false professions of faith is not something that need to be [u][b]discussed[/b][/u], but sharply [u][b]rebuked[/b][/u].
Please continue you own comments Phil, and refrain from muzzling others.
I don't see you asking Krispy to be quiet because he stated Calvinism is not taught in scripture.
Katy
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| | 2008/1/24 11:41 | |
| | Re: | | The question of this thread:
For whom did Christ die for:
God's Answer:
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This CLEARLY establishes ours, and the whole world.
BUT ALSO, does not and is not a double emphasis of the Elect only.
Katy |
| | 2008/1/24 11:50 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
What do you hope to gain by discussing the issue?
Personally I'm hoping to gain some insight into what Calvinists believe... and what better way to find out than to actually conversate with some Calvinists.
My purpose in starting this thread, Katy, was not to necessarily proove Calvinism wrong. It's been 500 years and yet the debate rages on. I seriously doubt we will settle the issue once and for all on this forum.
I confess that until this week I knew very little about Calvinism. So how can I rebuke something if I dont know why I am rebuking it? Too many Christians look at an issue for about 5 minutes and think they are experts. I am not that way. I've studied the Bible version issue for years, debated it heavily on this very forum... and yet I in no way consider myself an expert on the subject.
There are parts of Calvinism that I do understand, and actually agree with. There are some I flatly do not agree with. There are MANY parts I simply am not able to comprehend... and that is why this needs discussing.
Sorry Katy if we all dont just take your word for it.
You've added a lot to this discussion, and I really love the fact that you want to be a part of this. Just hold off on the rebukes and reproofs. I dont want anyone chased off of here.
Believe it or not, darlin' ... I believe Calvinists are my brothers. Even if I dont believe everything they believe. They know salvation, they have the truth pertaining to that, and therefore I choose to only see Jesus in them.
Krispy |
| | 2008/1/24 12:07 | | BlazedbyGod
Member
Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462
| | Re: | | Quote:
Katy-did wrote:
The question of this thread:
For whom did Christ die for:
God's Answer:
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This CLEARLY establishes ours, and the whole world.
BUT ALSO, does not and is not a double emphasis of the Elect only.
Katy
Not neccessarily, the "ours" in this verse could be John speaking of himself and to the people he was writing to-which both John and the people he is writing it are Jews- thus that would constitute the "ours"-then for him to include the phrase "....and sins of the whole world.." would simply mean John was letting them know, that Jesus did not only die for the chosen children of Israel, but the entire world-meaning -even them who are not jews, but even gentiles, greeks, etc...
In Old T, the Jews knew themselves to be the ONLY people of God-thus, when you get to the new T, this is why phrases are written: "all, world, etc... letting them know that God is not the God of Jews only, but also of the Gentiles-which to Jews, would be THE REST OF THE WORLD.
Or, in other words, John is just letting his specific readers know that it wasn't just him (John) and them (the reader) who Christ was the propitiation for of sins-but the rest of the world to mean or include the rest of the Church all over the whole world.
Jesus makes it plain who it is that he died for:
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life FOR HIS FRIENDS. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you
Go back to verse 9: 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved YOU: continue ye in my love
As the Father loved the SON-Jesus says so have I loved YOU-who is the YOU in this verse-his disciples, his followers, or " them that love him"
From the beginning God has always stated: " I love them, THAT LOVE ME.." -this is why he loved the SON, because the SON loved HIM, and this is even as the SON hath loved US (the disciples, the Church-because we love the Father through Christ)
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them THAT LOVE ME, and keep my commandments.
So we must understand-who the "world" is to God-
John 3:16 For God so loved the world...this refers to ALL that He, the Father had GIVEN TO THE SON.
This is why Jesus says: ALL whom thou hast given me will come to me-BECAUSE OF THE FORKNOWLEDGE of God's love-to love them that love him because he loved US first, not that we loved him.
The idea here, is an arranged marriage-the Father, picked the Bride for his SON.! And the SON is pleased with THAT bride, Because he does all things to please the FATHER, and according to the Father's will.
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| | 2008/1/24 12:40 | Profile | BlazedbyGod
Member
Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462
| | Re: | | The fourth time the name JESUS is mentioned in the beginning or opening of the Gospel, even tells us who Christ died for, or came to save:
Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save [b]HIS PEOPLE[/b] from their sins
* This does not ONLY refer to Jews, because Jesus saved both Jew & Gentile-and there is neither jew nor gentile IN Christ.
Who are "HIS" people?-Those whose names were in the Lambs book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. |
| | 2008/1/24 12:55 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Blazed, if we take your reasoning, which is God loves those who love Him, and hates those who hate Him... then Jesus preached to us that we should do something that He Himself is not willing to do... "love thy enemies".
Mat 5:43-48 [color=FF0000]"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."[/color]
Jesus is preaching the very heart of God here. Yet you say that He loved only His "friends". You are wrong on this point.
And this is the whole problem I have with Calvinism... it makes God a respecter of persons (which God Himself said He wasnt), it makes Him out to be a hater of all who He has predestined to hell (but yet Jesus says to us that we should do something even God isnt supposedly capable of doing)... and it makes God out to be the creator of evil and sin.
Krispy |
| | 2008/1/24 13:14 | | BlazedbyGod
Member
Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462
| | Re: | | Krispy,
I could make the same argument as far as you saying God loves the world, but then later on in John tells us NOT to love the world.
God loves them who love him- IS NOT MY REASONING-(you made it my reasoning) but is a direct scripture on MORE than one account.
I guess you are also forgetting, that God knew all before creating ANY THING-and that Jesus is talking to FINITE individuals about finite individuals, but God on the other hand WHO IS SOVERIGN and INFINITE KNOWING ALL THINGS-is it unrighteous for God to do anything?
You are also forgetting, that any saved person too was ONCE AN ENEMY OF GOD-Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 9:13 "...saying Jacob I HAVE LOVED, Esau I HAVE HATED.."
"then Jesus preached to us that we should do something that He Himself is not willing to do... "love thy enemies"."
And, you are too late, because God has already from the foundation of the world done something-that none of us would ever be willing to do-and that is crush his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
"[b]Jesus is preaching the very heart of God here. Yet you say that He loved only His "friends". You are wrong on this point.[/b]"
I am not the one who said: I lay down my life FOR MY FRIENDS-JESUS is the one that said that-so to say that statement is wrong, is to say that Jesus is wrong (not me)
"[b]..it makes God a respecter of persons (which God Himself said He wasnt), it makes Him out to be a hater of all who He has predestined to hell [/b]"
Well I guess, you should ask Judas Iscariot about that-because he sure nough is lost, and is the Son of Perdition, as well as the anti-christ, and the false prophet-which all of these PEOPLE are eternally wihtout any possiblity of hope DAMNED! And they even came INTO world ALREADY damned-they NEVER had any chance WHATSOEVER for salvation. |
| | 2008/1/24 13:34 | Profile | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | Quote:
And they even came INTO world ALREADY damned-they NEVER had any chance WHATSOEVER for salvation.
wow, i can already see the future posts about this comment.
i guess that is the difference between you and me. i believe that all have a chance to receive and believe on Him and you don't.
i shouldn't say anything else. have a great day.
phil |
| | 2008/1/24 13:39 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
2 Timothy 2:14
Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers
Main Entry:
subvert
Middle English, from Anglo-French subvertir, from Latin subvertere, literally, to turn from beneath
1 : to overturn or overthrow from the foundation : RUIN 2 : to pervert or corrupt by an undermining of morals, allegiance, or faith
2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
This verse cannot get any simpler.
These Paul are talking about are Not those God has foreordained to damnation. But because THEY received not the Truth of the Gospel that they might be saved.
So, salvation is based upon receiving the Truth of the Gospel. Not based upon God receiving it for you.
It is most interesting that the Jews, having ADDED as well as diminished the Truth, did not even recognize Jesus when he came.
Thats what happens when WE start playing around with the Word of Truth.
They thought they were Gods ELECT simply because they were Abrahams seed.
The Judgments in Revelations are in hopes to bring repentance. How can God even conceive of doing this, if He hasnt made it possible for man to repent.
I do understand that those who come to Christ are written in the Lambs book of Life
.from the foundation of the world. WE however did not exist before the foundation of the world, but Gods plan of the New Creation did.
Revelation 2:6
But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:15
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
It was mentioned that we should not HATE false doctrine, for in doing so, we are hating those who hold to false doctrine. However this is not the words of Jesus Christ.
Thanks Krispy
..
This is my last comment here on the subject. I see each question or remark only gives an opportunity to submit that which does subvert the hearers by introducing a subverted version.
Jesus did not come for the righteous, but to bring sinners to repentance!
Love in Christ
Katy
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| | 2008/1/24 13:41 | |
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